Cruising and Modern Conveniences- All is good with Universe

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Indeed.
The 1960s saw the Jet-Age really take hold,....

That said it was still very very expensive until the coming of the 747. Even then a flight from say Australia to Europe return was the best part of a year's pay for the average punter.

The FIFO cruiser only appeared in the last few decades.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

You don't have to get off the beaten path for repairs to be a big problem, and wreck your cruising plans. I see boats all the time that never leave the marina or even get launched because of some repair issue, and brand new boats seem particularly vulnerable.

Boat repair in exotic places . . .



Indeed.


Simplifying the boat helps with this, but happy cruising, whether your boat is simple or complex, nevertheless means EITHER having a professional engineer on board with you at all times; OR having all the spare parts and tools and knowledge with you on board to fix anything that breaks.


I have learned this through bitter, hard experience, wasting big parts of precious cruising days faffing with trying to get parts to fix something.


Having the part on board or not having it on board can mean the difference between a problem affecting your cruise for days or weeks, and that problem being solvable in a few minutes.


This is true even when NOT off the beaten path -- I'll never forget my boat's having been paralyzed for days one time within a taxi ride from Stockholm -- a major capital city -- because I couldn't get a part for a pump which had failed. . No one in Sweden had the part nor even a complete replacement and it would have had to be flown in. Finally, at the end of the second or third day of screwing around with it, while my guests happily explored the locality, I found the spare on board squirreled away somewhere.


Now I have a complete replacement for every pump on board (including fresh and seawater pumps for both diesel engines), as well as a large ammo box of spares for all of them. I'll be damned if I go through that again -- you never get those days back.


A simpler boat reduces the quantity of spares you need and reduces the risk of problems but even the simplest boat breaks and so the nature of the challenge doesn't change.



So I've become a fanatic hoarder of spare parts, more and more with every passing year.


A simpler boat at the same time has a drawback in this area -- it will often have only one of systems which more complex or larger boats have two of. For example, my boat has two heads compartments with two toilets, showers, etc., served by two different gray water systems. This is a boon in case something fails, whether its a toilet, shower mixer, gray water pump, whatever -- you can use the other heads until you can fix yours. This redundancy can be very useful.


My boat has a heavy duty generator, meaning I have to keep a ton of spares for that on top of spares for the main engine. But this also means I have redundant means of producing bulk electrical power, since I also have a heavy duty schoolbus alternator on the main engine. If one or the other breaks, I have backup.


So while simple can be beneficial, it's not a panacea.

[barcoMeCasa]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

The Pardeys had a saying: If you can't fix it, why is it on your boat?

Far too much of a generalisation imho, but then this is the black & white land of social media far removed from the real world

All boats ever do is break, usually slowly, sometimes quickly, but constantly. Fundamental law of physics. If most of the stuff mostly works most of the time then that's about as good as you can realistically hope for

Much better to aim for a boat where it can still safely sail even when most of the bits aren't working.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Point of order! You must be very very young.

We had well and truly moved on from DC3s by the late 60s.
Qantas had introduced a 'round the world' service using Lockheed Super Constellations in 1957.
I first crossed the Pacific in early 1970 on a Qantas 707. Not non stop mind you. Overnight Sydney- Fiji - Tahiti , day in a beach resort near the airport then another overnight to Acapulco. Last leg was longest over water flight in the world at the time. They only flew at night cos they were still using celestial in the southern hemisphere back then.
That's it
Carry on chaps.

He said 787's which first flew in 2009. (787 Dreamliner)

Your remark is out of context.

Last "planes" I have flown are both prop planes and first flew in 1960.

Both have been updated though and are still flying.

I usually just "fly" over my intended sailing/cruising destinations then practice a landing or two with crash override on in case I hit too hard and blow a tire.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by barcoMeCasa

. . . All boats ever do is break, usually slowly, sometimes quickly, but constantly. Fundamental law of physics. If most of the stuff mostly works most of the time then that's about as good as you can realistically hope for . . .

Well said and eminently quotable!

[Kettlewell]

A simpler boat at the same time has a drawback in this area -- it will often have only one of systems which more complex or larger boats have two of. For example, my boat has two heads compartments with two toilets, showers, etc., served by two different gray water systems. This is a boon in case something fails, whether its a toilet, shower mixer, gray water pump, whatever -- you can use the other heads until you can fix yours. This redundancy can be very useful.

But then you have twice as many systems to keep in working order! I would argue the simpler boat will instead have systems that can be fixed often without any special parts, and it will be set up so the boat can proceed to the next harbor without the item being fixed. Of course some things will always require special parts, so with those things it is desirable to minimize the stuff that isn't very commonly available. Per your example, if you have a composting head there is very little to break in the first place, and what might break is pretty generic stuff. For example, my head exhaust fan died, so I replaced it with a generic computer fan that fit. That's the only repair on the head in 19 years! Similarly, I cruised for many years using nothing but a sunshower (no pumps or pressure water system needed), and I still think it is the perfect solution for warmer climates. Similarly, if your electrical needs are modest you don't need all the controllers, BMSs, monitoring stuff, etc. Using ordinary LA batteries and alternators means you can find replacements easily anywhere in the world. Not networking all your instruments means when one breaks you can replace it with a generic one available locally anywhere in the world. Etc. Etc.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

But then you have twice as many systems to keep in working order! I would argue the simpler boat will instead have systems that can be fixed often without any special parts, and it will be set up so the boat can proceed to the next harbor without the item being fixed. Of course some things will always require special parts, so with those things it is desirable to minimize the stuff that isn't very commonly available. Per your example, if you have a composting head there is very little to break in the first place, and what might break is pretty generic stuff. For example, my head exhaust fan died, so I replaced it with a generic computer fan that fit. That's the only repair on the head in 19 years! Similarly, I cruised for many years using nothing but a sunshower (no pumps or pressure water system needed), and I still think it is the perfect solution for warmer climates. Similarly, if your electrical needs are modest you don't need all the controllers, BMSs, monitoring stuff, etc. Using ordinary LA batteries and alternators means you can find replacements easily anywhere in the world. Not networking all your instruments means when one breaks you can replace it with a generic one available locally anywhere in the world. Etc. Etc.

All true, and if you get THAT simple, then there's truly less to fix.

My point was only that increased complexity does not necessarily result in a linear relationship with trouble, since at some point you start to gain redundancy.

To each his own, and I understand that many people love this kind of Zen cruising, but personally I don't want to be camping and using sun showers, especially not in the cold latitudes where I sail. I am very happy to have hot and cold running water, electric toilets, central heat, and abundant electrical power. Enough power to use electric cooking means the gas system is not a single point of failure. Having a washer/dryer on board enormously improves quality of life when living on board for months at a time, as I do. Some people love their composting toilets, but I categorically refuse to store and handle human waste on board. That's just me, though. To each his own.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

But then you have twice as many systems to keep in working order! I would argue the simpler boat will instead have systems that can be fixed often without any special parts, and it will be set up so the boat can proceed to the next harbor without the item being fixed. Of course some things will always require special parts, so with those things it is desirable to minimize the stuff that isn't very commonly available. Per your example, if you have a composting head there is very little to break in the first place, and what might break is pretty generic stuff. For example, my head exhaust fan died, so I replaced it with a generic computer fan that fit. That's the only repair on the head in 19 years! Similarly, I cruised for many years using nothing but a sunshower (no pumps or pressure water system needed), and I still think it is the perfect solution for warmer climates. Similarly, if your electrical needs are modest you don't need all the controllers, BMSs, monitoring stuff, etc. Using ordinary LA batteries and alternators means you can find replacements easily anywhere in the world. Not networking all your instruments means when one breaks you can replace it with a generic one available locally anywhere in the world. Etc. Etc.

That's all well and good but then what does that leave you to yarn/moan about at the bar or on forums other than weather.. not really on mate, you'll just get a lecture about using shorebased monitors via Starlink to avoid the risk (fun)

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

. Similarly, if your electrical needs are modest you don't need all the controllers, BMSs, monitoring stuff, etc. Using ordinary LA batteries and alternators means you can find replacements easily anywhere in the world.

It's only been in the last 10+ years that hi-capacity/hi-power DC-AC systems have become widely available and affordable - the energy density of LFP (coupled with Balmar/Victron type generation and controls) is really attractive. This has opened the door to adding a ton of creature comforts - heck, even electric cooking is back in fashion (albeit induction). They are, obviously, more complex and fragile. For us, what worked flawlessly in the mild climate of San Diego is working at capacity in low latitudes where engine room temps exceed 115F. For a boat cruising lessor developed countries like those in Central America, repairs to these systems are not possible and carrying full spares not practical.

If I were to start from scratch again, I'd strongly consider going the AGM route and reduce my electricity budget. I am pretty savvy with this stuff and can certainly keep my current system maintained, but I think I could get 80% of the benefit with 20% of the complexity using a tried and true large frame internally regulated alternator and AGMs.

[Mike OReilly]

To me, system complexity is not the core metric. It's whether the crew can maintain and repair the system. So the measure of whether is a system is too complex is crew-dependent.

Highly skilled people can meet the maintenance & repair standard at a higher level of complexity, vs those of us with modest skills. That said, obviously the simpler a system is, the easier it is to repair when it breaks.

DH, I don't get the complexity -- redundancy correlation. I think vessel size is a stronger relationship; the bigger the boat, the more systems you have on board, hence greater redundancy.

As for the camping comment ... my boat is quite simple by most standards, but it is nothing like camping. Once again, I suppose it depends on the individual.

BTW, I use a cockpit sunshower. I cruise Newfoundland . In the late spring to early fall, the temperatures are quite comfortable.

[sailorboy1]

What are these complex systems some seem to believe break all the time?

Cruisers can find an extra 30 minutes a month to do some extra maintenance if need.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

What are these complex systems some seem to believe break all the time?

Cruisers can find an extra 30 minutes a month to do some extra maintenance if need.

For me, refrigeration/AC and power system generation - DC charging (Balmar/LFP/Victron) is less reliable than AC (Northern Lights, though I did need to replace a voltage regulator). Even though I've de-rated my Balmar alternator, it still isn't happy and tends to generate a fair amount of belt dust. Manageable, but clearly noticable.

I'd note that ehile my issues are mild and manageable, they are almost entirely related to design and installation challenges. For example, if you're going to go with a high output alternator, make sure you go with a large frame one and have very robust brackets for it. In my opinion, doing a simple sheave/belt conversion is substandard. On most engines, belt also drives the raw water pump which means if the alternator fails such as a bearing failure, you are dead in the water without an engine unless you have a spare alternator.

I also met a cruiser (sail) in La Cruz who was jammed-up because his DC generator was his battery charger but also drove his watermaker pressure pump. When the raw water pump failed, he lost ability to charge batteries and he slowly destroyed his AGM bank - all for lack of a simple water pump (he was not knowledgeable enough to decide a workaround). Between that and waiting on a meager pension check, he was hobbled for two months.

[Kettlewell]

What are these complex systems some seem to believe break all the time?

Cruisers can find an extra 30 minutes a month to do some extra maintenance if need.

Ha! I've told the tale before of the guy I met with his brand-new high-end custom catamaran that never left the dock all summer long because they could not get the systems working properly, and he had highly-paid professionals working on it. I bet he spent more that summer than the cost of my entire boat, and yet he never went anywhere. Similarly, I once tried to help someone troubleshoot his electronic engine controls down in Panama on a nearly new trawler. No luck. He had to fly someone in from California to fix it. Another guy had a big modern cat on which the nav system inexplicably wouldn't integrate with any of the other instruments, despite working previously. We sailed his boat the old fashioned way with compass bearings and dead reckoning. For my own part I had to rebuild my transmission once while at anchor. I've had to replace the hydraulic steering cylinder. Then of course there are torn sails, broken rigging, failed blocks, burnt out bulbs in difficult to change fittings, mysterious electrical problems, the list goes on and on. Just the routine spring prep on my boat can easily take a month of weekends. As I keep repeating, the #1 cause (after health and family) for people quitting cruising is the maintenance.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Similarly, I once tried to help someone troubleshoot his electronic engine controls down in Panama on a nearly new trawler. No luck. He had to fly someone in from California to fix it.

Things like this are where I get picky about equipment selection. It's not just about how good the equipment is or how simple vs complex it is. A big factor is whether the parts and information needed to maintain and repair it is available or if you're reliant on the manufacturer for everything.

[sailorboy1]

In my 7.5 year of cruising "complex" systems maintenance providing totaled:

- Freezer/refrigeration -20 hours (most pf that was installing new electronic thermostats and replacing seals). Not much time for cold food and being able to have 2 months meat in the freezer
- Air conditioning -2 hours maybe. most was replacing the starter capacitors with soft start the rest was just replacing/cleanimg the filters
- watermaker -2 hours once installed on my AC SW {ro units and 10 units on my Spectuar before realizing it was WAY too complex
- inboard generator = 20 hours before I just gave up on it
-Honda EU2200 -6 hours in 5 years to replace pull crd, clean carburetor, change oil[
- alternator/charger - 4 hours to change alternator belts, replace the regulator once and add temp protection. The charger has never needed any maintenance
-batteries - 8 hours most of which was changing the location to handle different size and to replace them
- autopilot 2 hours to change a gps compass
- chartplotter and other instruments - maybe 30 minutes
- electric head - 6 hours over the years to change joker valves, clean motor after failed seal
- 40" TV and system to stream - don't they ever needed "maintenance"
- stereo probably 5 hours as I had a few go bad
- pressure fresh water, don't remember the last time did anything to it
- Hot water, 0 minutes the OEM 23 year water heater still working fine

So not much time over the 7.5 yeas to ruin my busy schedule. Meanwhile the enjoyment of those systems were priceless!