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Old 25-10-2020, 12:24   #1
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Can I sail with her???

I have a 1903 Monterey Trawler. 29' L x 8'2" W. 10,000 lbs. She's rock solid. She also has a "steadying sail". There's a storm jib in the cabin. The mast is 24' off the deck. And oh, I have no clue how to sail but my friends do. Here's the issue 1) some say it's just a steadying sail to use at anchor 2) Some say it's a steadying sail for use underway under power or at anchor 3) Some say it's a legit sail boat or get-me-home option good for 3knots or so. Can anyone clue me in what to expect?
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Old 25-10-2020, 12:55   #2
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Re: Can I sail with her???

Hi, Russian007,

If it does not have a chainplate forward, you won't be able to put a headsail on it. Most riding sails or steadying sails don't have very much sail area for actually driving the boat somewhere. Boats with the shape of yours are fairly common here in Tasmania, and some of them are set up to be sail assisted. Those ones have an additional stay, forward, like a sail boat, and they are often sailed or motor sailed, mostly off the wind.

In your shoes, I'd take it out and try it. Boats are different enough from each other, that the experience you have with yours will govern how you think about using your steadying sail for propulsion. You will probably find that you are able to use the sail to move the boat off the wind (wind aft of the beam), albeit very slowly. So, if it is downwind to where you want to go, yes, you could use it. How often, depends on how you feel about it while you're doing it.

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Old 25-10-2020, 13:41   #3
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Re: Can I sail with her???

As Ann suggests, the staying of the mast does not appear to be ready for a foresail. Are you sure your "storm jib" isn't a storm trisail? Does it have hanks for attaching to a forestay? Is there a jib halyard? Are there blocks set up, or places where they obviously were, for the jib leads? Some kind of cleats, port and starboard, for the sheets? A steadying sail makes much more sense for a commercial fishing boat that has to get where it's going. Seas on the beam might tend to rock your long, shallow boat unmercifully if the steadying sail wasn't up. It might also be useful keeping the boat pointed into the wind (and waves) while tending nets or crab pots. The mast's position so far aft makes it an unlikely candidate for moving the boat forward much, since it will tend to skew the stern into the wind. It might help some going downwind if it doesn't make steering too difficult. Your best bet is to try it out, and hope you never need a storm trisail, if that's what the other sail actually is.
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Old 25-10-2020, 13:48   #4
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Re: Can I sail with her???

I don't often disagree with Ann, but when I enlarge your pic, there does seem to be a wire leading from the top of the mast ("the masthead") to the stem of the boat right next to where the anchor is ("the stemhead').

This wire, on your boat, would be intended primarily to prevent the mast from "falling over backwards". It would not be intended to carry sail of any consequence. There would be other wires intended to prevent the mast from falling forwards and sideways. Looking at the wires it'll be very obvious to you which wires do what.

The fact that they are there does not, by a long shot, mean that they are dimensioned for coping with the forces generated by driving a hull like yours under sail.

You don't say how many horsepower the engine is. But you can take it for granted that in to sail her at the speeds you are accustomed to getting under power, a sailing rig will have to generate at least that many horsepower.

TrentePieds is a motor-sailer having a much more efficient hull form (for sailing) and a displacement similar to yours. I'm 11K laden for cruising. My sail area is about 400SqFt, and that does the job. Barely! So you would have to be able to carry at least that. My mast is 35 feet from deck to "truck" (mast head). Draw yourself a dimensioned, scaled picture of your boat and see if you can conceivably put that much sail on her. I suspect you wont be able to. You are used to looking at "Marconi" or "bermudian" rigs with all triangular sails. Back in 1903 when you boat was built, such boats, when they had sails at all, usually had "quadrilinear" mainsails, i.e. "gaff sails". Using a gaff mainsail configuration you just MIGHT get enuff sail on 'er to move 'er.

But remember that mast and "standing rigging" have to be dimensioned to cope with the forces generated. If the picture you are gonna draw indicates that you CAN get 400 or 500 square feet of sail on 'er, then get back to us and we can help you with the question of dimensioning the standing rigging.

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Old 25-10-2020, 14:35   #5
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Re: Can I sail with her???

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Originally Posted by psk125 View Post
As Ann suggests, the staying of the mast does not appear to be ready for a foresail. Are you sure your "storm jib" isn't a storm trisail? Does it have hanks for attaching to a forestay? Is there a jib halyard? Are there blocks set up, or places where they obviously were, for the jib leads? Some kind of cleats, port and starboard, for the sheets? A steadying sail makes much more sense for a commercial fishing boat that has to get where it's going. Seas on the beam might tend to rock your long, shallow boat unmercifully if the steadying sail wasn't up. It might also be useful keeping the boat pointed into the wind (and waves) while tending nets or crab pots. The mast's position so far aft makes it an unlikely candidate for moving the boat forward much, since it will tend to skew the stern into the wind. It might help some going downwind if it doesn't make steering too difficult. Your best bet is to try it out, and hope you never need a storm trisail, if that's what the other sail actually is.
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I take a beating going across the channel with seas on my beam, if the sail(s) could stabilize her a bit that'd be awesome. Are there pointers for steadying sail usage? PO indicated the storm jib was what to use if engine quit. btw engine is a 28hp volvo diesel...thanks
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Old 25-10-2020, 15:15   #6
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Re: Can I sail with her???

The PO was right to the extent that the "storm jib" will drive the boat if the engine quits and the strength of the wind is enuff. But perhaps the PO is a little weak on the fundamental concepts.

A hull like yours will NOT sail on "storm jib" alone. What it WILL do is be driven downwind, and downwind only, at greater speed than it would be if you were not wearing the sail. It is unlike that you would have enuff control of the boat via the steering to hold her head to wind. Just what the doctor ordered if you are on a lee shore!!

There are no pointers needed for the use of steadying sails on a hull like yours. Just keep the boom for the sail sheeted hard in, and proceed as if you were not wearing the steadying sail. What the sail does is act as a "flopper stopper", because the air resistance, as the sail is forced through the air by the boats rolling, slows down the rolling.

However, once you get the wind coming from any point aft of the beam, the sail will ALSO have a tendency to slew the stern of the boat away from the wind (a condition known as "rounding up") and ultimately the boat will want to turn head to wind. In certain sea conditions, with the boat thus turning willy-nilly with no significant response to the rudder, that can be extremely dangerous because a sea can roll the boat right over.

Fishing vessels operating in the North Sea (twixt England and Denmark) are traditionally rigged in the fashion your boat is, and they are also traditionally designed and constructed so they can survive a roll-over in those dangerous waters. It is unlikely that your boat is so designed and constructed, so be mindful of the danger!

I should tell you also that sailboats do NOT ever get rolled over because of the wind's pressure in the sails. That pressure is totally gone, for reasons that trigonometry will tell you something about, at the time the boat "goes turtle". What causes the roll-over, a so-called "broach" (boat going out of control and turning sideways to the seas), is the wave action when the seas become very short (the ratio of distance peak to peak/height). In very short seas any object floating can cause the sea to break, and it's the breaking of the sea that lifts up a boat (even big ships) and rolls it over.

In these waters, the Salish Sea: Puget Sound, the Straits of Georgia and the waters north of there as far north as Alaska, fishing boats do not usually wear steadying sails. What the DO use are "flopper-stoppers " of a different kind. "Paravanes" or "kites" are slung over the side on long poles sticking out thwartships twenty or thirty feet and supported by wires from the top of the mast. From the end of these descend wires carrying the "kites". The boat's rolling pulls them up against the resistance of the water and that slows the roll of the boat. When the kites have been pulled up, they sink on the roll to the other side sue to their weight. Such an arrangement would probably be far more efficacious in your case than a steadying sail.

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Old 25-10-2020, 17:15   #7
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Re: Can I sail with her???

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
The PO was right to the extent that the "storm jib" will drive the boat if the engine quits and the strength of the wind is enuff. But perhaps the PO is a little weak on the fundamental concepts.

A hull like yours will NOT sail on "storm jib" alone. What it WILL do is be driven downwind, and downwind only, at greater speed than it would be if you were not wearing the sail. It is unlike that you would have enuff control of the boat via the steering to hold her head to wind. Just what the doctor ordered if you are on a lee shore!!

There are no pointers needed for the use of steadying sails on a hull like yours. Just keep the boom for the sail sheeted hard in, and proceed as if you were not wearing the steadying sail. What the sail does is act as a "flopper stopper", because the air resistance, as the sail is forced through the air by the boats rolling, slows down the rolling.

However, once you get the wind coming from any point aft of the beam, the sail will ALSO have a tendency to slew the stern of the boat away from the wind (a condition known as "rounding up") and ultimately the boat will want to turn head to wind. In certain sea conditions, with the boat thus turning willy-nilly with no significant response to the rudder, that can be extremely dangerous because a sea can roll the boat right over.

Fishing vessels operating in the North Sea (twixt England and Denmark) are traditionally rigged in the fashion your boat is, and they are also traditionally designed and constructed so they can survive a roll-over in those dangerous waters. It is unlikely that your boat is so designed and constructed, so be mindful of the danger!

I should tell you also that sailboats do NOT ever get rolled over because of the wind's pressure in the sails. That pressure is totally gone, for reasons that trigonometry will tell you something about, at the time the boat "goes turtle". What causes the roll-over, a so-called "broach" (boat going out of control and turning sideways to the seas), is the wave action when the seas become very short (the ratio of distance peak to peak/height). In very short seas any object floating can cause the sea to break, and it's the breaking of the sea that lifts up a boat (even big ships) and rolls it over.

In these waters, the Salish Sea: Puget Sound, the Straits of Georgia and the waters north of there as far north as Alaska, fishing boats do not usually wear steadying sails. What the DO use are "flopper-stoppers " of a different kind. "Paravanes" or "kites" are slung over the side on long poles sticking out thwartships twenty or thirty feet and supported by wires from the top of the mast. From the end of these descend wires carrying the "kites". The boat's rolling pulls them up against the resistance of the water and that slows the roll of the boat. When the kites have been pulled up, they sink on the roll to the other side sue to their weight. Such an arrangement would probably be far more efficacious in your case than a steadying sail.

TrentePieds
Does "sheeting hard in" mean keeping the mainsail at 90 degrees to the wind? Or does it mean keep the boom and sail in line with the centerline of the boat? I tried google already.
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Old 25-10-2020, 19:16   #8
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Re: Can I sail with her???

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Does "sheeting hard in" mean keeping the mainsail at 90 degrees to the wind? Or does it mean keep the boom and sail in line with the centerline of the boat? I tried google already.
It means keeping the boom and sail in line with the centerline of the boat
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Old 25-10-2020, 20:50   #9
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Re: Can I sail with her???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian007 View Post
I have a 1903 Monterey Trawler. 29' L x 8'2" W. 10,000 lbs. She's rock solid. She also has a "steadying sail". There's a storm jib in the cabin. The mast is 24' off the deck. And oh, I have no clue how to sail but my friends do. Here's the issue 1) some say it's just a steadying sail to use at anchor 2) Some say it's a steadying sail for use underway under power or at anchor 3) Some say it's a legit sail boat or get-me-home option good for 3knots or so. Can anyone clue me in what to expect?
I, for one, think your boat is quite gorgeous. Of course it has no keel to promote sailing, so whatever you do it will be on courses more or less going with the wind.

But the sail under that cover on your boom looks to be a bit bigger than a steadying sail, so maybe you actually have a mainsail. If so, good.

Now, if you have sufficient shrouds to hold up the mast, you could set a decently sized headsail (in the front of the boat). Ask a sailmaker to look at your rigging. And you'll also need some blocks and winch or something to sheet such a headsail in and hold it. If you have all of that, you might have a sailboat, for reaching and down wind work.

Without a headsail, your steadying sail or main sail won't do much. It certainly won't get you home.

So keep your motor running.
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Old 25-10-2020, 22:31   #10
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Re: Can I sail with her???

Panope's hull and keel is similar to the boat in question (keel is 1 foot tall amidship) albeit heavier at 15K lbs.

Here is video on close reach in 25 knots with her storm canvas (160 sq. ft. total). Boat will make some way to weather, slowly.

Steve



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Old 25-10-2020, 22:49   #11
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Re: Can I sail with her???

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I, for one, think your boat is quite gorgeous. Of course it has no keel to promote sailing, so whatever you do it will be on courses more or less going with the wind.

But the sail under that cover on your boom looks to be a bit bigger than a steadying sail, so maybe you actually have a mainsail. If so, good.

Now, if you have sufficient shrouds to hold up the mast, you could set a decently sized headsail (in the front of the boat). Ask a sailmaker to look at your rigging. And you'll also need some blocks and winch or something to sheet such a headsail in and hold it. If you have all of that, you might have a sailboat, for reaching and down wind work.

Without a headsail, your steadying sail or main sail won't do much. It certainly won't get you home.

So keep your motor running.
she has 1000 lbs in the keep or what there is of a keel.
btw, the original 1903 configuration was a ketch rig and I believe a 1 cylinder eng.
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Old 25-10-2020, 22:57   #12
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Re: Can I sail with her???

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Panope's hull and keel is similar to the boat in question (keel is 1 foot tall amidship) albeit heavier at 15K lbs.

Here is video on close reach in 25 knots with her storm canvas (160 sq. ft. total). Boat will make some way to weather, slowly.

Steve



5.5 knots and not much sail out! wow! But that's not a Saugeen Witch is it? Aren't they based on an Angelman Sea Witch?
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Old 25-10-2020, 23:12   #13
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Re: Can I sail with her???

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5.5 knots and not much sail out! wow! But that's not a Saugeen Witch is it? Aren't they based on an Angelman Sea Witch?
I should mention that I use a feathering propeller (Maxprop). This is good for at least a 1/2 knot, maybe 3/4 knot increase in sailing speed as I formerly had a quite large (for size of boat - 18") 3 blade, fixed pitch propeller.


Panope is most certainly a Saugeen Witch hull. I say 'hull' because I modified her with the switch from schooner to sloop rig, and the addition of the wheel house.

I know not if the Angelman Sea Witch was inspiration for Tom Colvin when he designed her.

Steve
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Old 26-10-2020, 03:54   #14
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Re: Can I sail with her???

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I should mention that I use a feathering propeller (Maxprop). This is good for at least a 1/2 knot, maybe 3/4 knot increase in sailing speed as I formerly had a quite large (for size of boat - 18") 3 blade, fixed pitch propeller.


Panope is most certainly a Saugeen Witch hull. I say 'hull' because I modified her with the switch from schooner to sloop rig, and the addition of the wheel house.

I know not if the Angelman Sea Witch was inspiration for Tom Colvin when he designed her.

Steve
I looked at your video. Interesting. I'd be shocked if that design was inspired by the Angelman Sea Witch.
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Old 26-10-2020, 04:25   #15
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Re: Can I sail with her???

Very familiar with long keel power boats with sails. Even fairly sizeable sails such as OPs, they are "get somewhere" vs "get home" power. The most beneficial use is for stability. Will also give a boost when motorsailing. A sistership to my Willard 36, another venerable west coast design, went from California to Hawaii with a sail plan similar to yours. He averaged 0.9 gph at 6.5 kts for the trip.

Im not a fan of riding sails at anchor - they rarely give much benefit. But if you want to give a try, would be the mainsail only and sheetfed as flat as possible.

Nice boat.

Peter
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