"Bluewater" Boat Threads

[Mad Multi]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Why do the biweekly "help me find a Bluewater boat" threads get so much response???

Do people really believe they can help a person with so little experience find a "bluewater" boat?

If the poster is asking the question, have they really done any research beyond reading an outdated book maybe?

Man the forums can be so toxic, and self-righteous :-)

The idea that someone is asking about good Bluewater boats has no experience is silly, if yer coming from a racer or a coastal cruiser finding real-life examples from people who are actually running bluewater boats and crossing oceans is not only valid but totally the smart thing to do... The accumulation of knowledge from people with first-hand experince is a big part of what makes a good sailor, 20 years ago when you had to learn every lesson because the information wasn't readily available is not the world we live in now...

Also, this elitist group perpetuating the myth that sailing is some titanic undertaking that is so difficult and fraught with danger that only a few can achieve it is just wrong, Yes you need some training and a lot of knowledge and experience but with resources like the internet, forums and youtube, and the modern tech both mechanical and electronic, this is not a terribly difficult undertaking for almost anyone... The crusty old-boys club perpetuating this myth do so more for their own self-righteous sense of elitism than any reality :-)

[AJ_n_Audrey]

Originally Posted by DMF Sailing

Since we're on the topic, sort of:

Why is the boat called "bluewater" but when you're out there and the water comes in over the side it's green?

The only way you could make any of the offshore water I've seen blue is if you put one of those toilet bowl cleaner tablets in it as it sloshes around the cockpit

Middle of the Gulf Stream - the water is a hard-to-describe light slate blue, if that makes any sense. I always take pictures of it, but photos never accurately capture that weird blue color.

[sailorboy1]

I am a wannabe.

What proven 1893 wood boat with canvas sails would be best for solo non stop circumnavigation?

Should i keep the cannon on it?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Mad Multi

Man the forums can be so toxic, and self-righteous :-)

The idea that someone is asking about good Bluewater boats has no experience is silly, if yer coming from a racer or a coastal cruiser finding real-life examples from people who are actually running bluewater boats and crossing oceans is not only valid but totally the smart thing to do... The accumulation of knowledge from people with first-hand experince is a big part of what makes a good sailor, 20 years ago when you had to learn every lesson because the information wasn't readily available is not the world we live in now...

Also, this elitist group perpetuating the myth that sailing is some titanic undertaking that is so difficult and fraught with danger that only a few can achieve it is just wrong, Yes you need some training and a lot of knowledge and experience but with resources like the internet, forums and youtube, and the modern tech both mechanical and electronic, this is not a terribly difficult undertaking for almost anyone... The crusty old-boys club perpetuating this myth do so more for their own self-righteous sense of elitism than any reality :-)

Rubbish..
First boat a 24ft timber bilge keeler I sailed across the English Channel to France and the Channel Islands.. did the same with various 21ft to 26ft boats over the next 10yrs.
Upgraded to a Westerly 31ft to liveaboard and sailed it UK to the Med..
Bought a Bene Oceanis 321 and solo'd it nonstop Caribe to UK.. 5yrs later did the same with an Oceanis 331.. but this time stopped in the Azores then Portugal before arriving UK.
All boats (well almost) can be 'bluewater' in the hands of a competent seaman..
Look at the examples of 'Bluewater Boats' abandoned by those who were not.. 'Wolfhound' comes to mind, a Swan 48.
Bluewater boats are a unicorn insurance policyagainst inadequate abilities, placing all faith in the boat for survival.
It does not always pay off.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Hej Don,

I just happen to have a nice Conestoga wagon and 4 older but still going strong oxen that I want to sell. It is wood, so easily repairable, and a couple of centruies ago it was what everyone "sailed" across the prairie. Heck they were even known as Prairie Schooners!

The perfect answer to your question

I missed this earlier. How much do you want. Would you trade for my old red rusted wagon a left adjustable skate (lost the right one, butfor with experience you only need one)

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Why do the biweekly "help me find a Bluewater boat" threads get so much response???
[/B][/B]?

Lest we forget the actual question that a couple of posters misread in the first place, I've said many times that I am amazed at how so many of you can be so polite answering the same questions on a bi-weekly basis.

I don't speak for the chaos forum but I do think the answers noobs get there reflect the realities that: it is often obvious no homework has been attempted, helplessness doesn't work well with sailing, and the end result is no space for actual sailors in marinas due to the numbers of sailboats that ain't going anywhere anytime soon. Noobs with dough just move on when sighting the next shiny object or pastime.

I'd bet 10 in a 1000 bluewater dreamers never get to it regardless of how grand a vessel they buy. And nothing wrong with that decision but why help kill sailing by encouraging dilettantes clogging the works? And of the 10, 7 or so will get the wife and kids into a scary and dangerous situation offshore because they haven't read of the negatives. This is really not OK.

I haven't followed here much lately but didn't Wheels or someone have a sticky post or two along these lines? Think of the time saved by referring someone to an established great response, rather than the endless rehash.

But ask a genuine question on SA and you get many very astute answers for a bit but once the question has been answered, anything goes. It's fun if it's not you in the barrel.

[Mad Multi]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Rubbish..
First boat a 24ft timber bilge keeler I sailed across the English Channel to France and the Channel Islands.. did the same with various 21ft to 26ft boats over the next 10yrs.
Upgraded to a Westerly 31ft to liveaboard and sailed it UK to the Med..
Bought a Bene Oceanis 321 and solo'd it nonstop Caribe to UK.. 5yrs later did the same with an Oceanis 331.. but this time stopped in the Azores then Portugal before arriving UK.
All boats (well almost) can be 'bluewater' in the hands of a competent seaman..
Look at the examples of 'Bluewater Boats' abandoned by those who were not.. 'Wolfhound' comes to mind, a Swan 48.
Bluewater boats are a unicorn insurance policyagainst inadequate abilities, placing all faith in the boat for survival.
It does not always pay off.

Well, ya just verified what I said... jump in a boat and sail, you will learn... it's not rocket science... I never said ya need a Bluewater boat :-) I said there is no downside to accumulating knowledge...

I've had small not "fit for purpose" boats in way over their heads and not minded a bit, I totally agree that the idea that a bluewater boat will allow you to sail bluewater is bull but I never said that it would... not sure what you are referencing here...

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Mad Multi

Well, ya just verified what I said... jump in a boat and sail, you will learn... it's not rocket science... I never said ya need a Bluewater boat :-) I said there is no downside to accumulating knowledge...

I've had small not "fit for purpose" boats in way over their heads and not minded a bit, I totally agree that the idea that a bluewater boat will allow you to sail bluewater is bull but I never said that it would... not sure what you are referencing here...

Just that just about all who ask about blue water on here have little or no experience of sailing and those who have experience don't need to ask, they already have formed opinions sailing boats other than dinghies.
These first post seekers of Bluewater boats will never see true blue water apart from the deck of maybe a cruise liner.
I have long stopped taking these posts seriously.
Now I only reply to posts with a member history that establishes them as a genuine enquirer.
No elitism just cynicism..

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Mad Multi

Man the forums can be so toxic, and self-righteous :-)
Also, this elitist group perpetuating the myth that sailing is some titanic undertaking that is so difficult and fraught with danger that only a few can achieve it is just wrong, Yes you need some training and a lot of knowledge and experience but with resources like the internet, forums and youtube, and the modern tech both mechanical and electronic, this is not a terribly difficult undertaking for almost anyone... The crusty old-boys club perpetuating this myth do so more for their own self-righteous sense of elitism than any reality :-)

In this thread? I've been following this humor since the beginning and did not see any of the above statements. Take 2 aspirins and call me in the morning.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Mad Multi

..............
.....................................

Also, this elitist group perpetuating the myth that sailing is some titanic undertaking that is so difficult and fraught with danger that only a few can achieve it is just wrong, Yes you need some training and a lot of knowledge and experience but with resources like the internet, forums and youtube, and the modern tech both mechanical and electronic, this is not a terribly difficult undertaking for almost anyone... The crusty old-boys club perpetuating this myth do so more for their own self-righteous sense of elitism than any reality :-)

On another thread, there was a lady writing for both herself and her husband. They had just bought a PY23 and were cleaning it up. She honestly expressed a whole lot of lack of knowledge, and mentioned they'd like to go out with children and disabled friends.

As one of those pure sailing elitists, I provided a lot of help with links in answer to her questions, especially about boat electrical systems. She also had major rigging issues, like one aft lower shroud completely missing, that she'd missed seeing, simply because she is new to sailboats.

I got a pm from another regular forum member who was concerned that she was going to take the input we'd shared with her and go out altogether too soon, given the issues confronting her. I agreed with him, and returned to the thread and suggested she take a deep breath and study the material she had been provided before she ever left the dock, especially with kids. She said she was writing the posts because her hubby was too busy running around and HE had decided that they were keeping this boat regardless of how much work they had to do on it even though she knew it wasn't that great. "But HE said he"...kinda malarkey.

So, after sharing tons of info with her, and providing her with followup answers to her questions, and then simply expressing concerns using words like "...our concern for your SAFETY..." what did I get from this lass?


Something like: "Do you understand how condescending your last post was?"


And you wonder why some of us feel that some folks just shouldn't be out there?

[CruiseN]

Hey..
I'm a wannaboat bloke.

Any 1893 wooden gracefully built Bluewater yacht wood be great for circumnavigation;
If she's survived all the years between now and the 19 th century then she must be a beautiful vessel. Know doubt; plenty of storms since then and now.

Another thread had reconnaissance indicating a week's travel on a Valiant 40 from Hobart to NZ.
Would that be doubled because of the natural currents? Tripled? NZ to Bass Strait.
Trade winds? Momentum current above halo of southern?(below if Artic heads Earth).
Idk. May as well ask. Simple thought is to bearing mid East coast and enjoy hot to cold current strength.

I like wooden around the 60s. They are fast. They are graceful. Plenty enough stowed. They might get wet but oil skins and a broad brim hat take care of that whilst modern auto pilots tend to an easier helm.

[CruiseN]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Depends on your definition of Newbie..
Ship rigs came first then came the Bermudan sloop rig which was an experiment at making gaffers more efficient in the 17th century in Bermuda.. it worked and as a result its been honed into what is used on your boat today..
The first wing keel was in 1983 I believe.. 1893 the first fin on sailboats.. Strange how the numbers are the same, just shuffled round..
Pioneers are newbies to the form.. Or Vicki verka..

Yeah definitely.. Bermuda rigs are beautifully efficient sets. Yet centuries ago a vessel named 'Sphinx' glided water one day flying Watt is now known as spinnaker.
Square rigs could tack with a torqued luff yet they were built to trade wind apply and their beauty is a balanced reach. Although horsepower is increased much, Spinnakers help prevent broaching.
Truely a maze in , just does during do, guy eye important and used as a clew.
Allows pressure to form and high current is born. Thus when high reaching a kite, that's providing talk of much more main might.
Power's from the mainsail. IMHO

[double u]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Newbies led to the fin keel and sloop rigs of today..

...they certainly led to swept-back spreaders, wheelsteering & saildrives!

[CruiseN]

I do wish you fun amongst clean paths because that's my fantasy too.

Hands on is a much easier way to learn because winds, waves and tides chat languages beyond my ability to argue with too.

Bermuda rigs are beautiful because they are tunable but I think I'm seeking a nice fat strong cruising rig incase she goes under. Yeah I'll lose point, woohoo I'll get some rest.
I haven't skippered a racing boat during our last quarter century but nothing has changed. Wind is wind, wave is wave. I was on boats that were questioned many times such as ," how the flock did you survive that?" and compliments such as ," wow you were lucky!"

Watt we did do was to use engine below redline. Engines being 30+foot tall, none of us wanted sheer or snap.

Symmetrical Spinnakers are so beautiful, helm will know whether weather is torquing hull or torquing main. Tight lines, silence is loudly spoken.

I'm much looking forward to disappearing on a sailboat again, sleeping on a balanced helm, awoken by weathers change, warm as toast beneath multiple coats.

Bermuda rig is also a gorgeous cruising rig. Some might prefer to reef early, we always did rather than concentrate on multiple control line tensions all the time.

[double u]

Originally Posted by Mad Multi

Man the forums can be so toxic, and self-righteous :-).....Also, this elitist group perpetuating the myth that sailing is some titanic undertaking that is so difficult and fraught with danger that only a few can achieve it is just wrong,.... The crusty old-boys club perpetuating this myth do so more for their own self-righteous sense of elitism than any reality :-)

on the contrary, my dear chap! I concur with the resident American in Nuku Hiva when remarked to about the marked increase in "bluewater boats" in Taiohae bay in 2019 (50, 60?) compared to a previous visit in 1990 (10?):
"nowadays one does not have to know anything any more!"
& right he is: navigation has become a video game, electric winches & windlass,...