Going electric - change my mind

[Gard]

I've often dreamt about going electric. I immagine that quiet engine. I immagine being able to "refill" anywhere with an electrical outlet (very slow). I immagine "refilling" on solar (extremely slow). I immagine having that power bank available for various house stuff. I immagine cheaper and easier maintenance. I immagine no more diesel smell. I immagine, and immagine, and immagine...

Then I come back to earth.

Then I think about diesel. I think about how much cheaper and easier it would be to install an overhauled engine. I think about how much quicker it is to fill up with diesel and how seldom I would need to do it. I think about how much more range i get on a single tank - and that I have the option to carry cans should I need even more. I think about how I might get my diesel running after a lightning strike. I think about how easily and quickly I can recharge my house batteries. I think about all the extra horsepower I would have under rough conditions or difficult docking situations. I think about situations where things don't go as planned, and where I would love to have a diesel - like when I want to stay out an extra night or I all of a sudden get in a hurry to get some place under less than ideal wind (a store before closing, a venue, picking up a friend). I think about the flexibility in the event that the future may hold something different and unforseen than today. I think about the rapid technology advances in electric drives and batteries - in addition for future demand for my boat. I think about how I might want to have a genny aboard to make up for the short comings of the electric. I think about how fires to lithium batteries can start, with no fault by the user - and how impossible putting out lithium battery fires are. I think, and rethink - and come to my senses. Electric sucks!

In my opinion, electric engines on a boat is a poor choice in all but an extremely few cases. There are exceptions of course - like when you are in an environment where diesel is a no go (some lakes). Another example would be if the boat never ever had to go any noteworthy distance and there was always plenty of time to recharge between trips. Another reason would be if one was hell bent on sailing as much of any trip as possible (irrespective of wind conditions) - and only use renewable energy for house and propulsion, and only have the engine on hand for docking, or in tight waters where sailing is illegal or dangerous. Maybe the thought of having electric make you all mushy inside (I got very close to building a small a 2 hp steamboat once).

If you seriously contemplate electric... My advice would be to speak with someone who has lived with electric for a while, with similar use patterns like yourself. Even better, get yourself invited on a trip.

[Mauruuru]

it is interesting to see all the anti-EV snarks out there with strong opinions. Never drove it never will bit let me tell you what's wrong with it? Really? Not interested in your opinion.....
Have driven Hybrid vehicles since 2008. Ran an electric utility for 35 years yes there is plenty of capacity most places especially at night. Drove my wife's Tesla model 3 to El Paso, TX from Chicago never had an issue with too many people stopping to eat donuts at the same time. Currently have two Teslas and a Rivian.....will never go back to ICE.

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY and more germaine to the issues on this site, I took out a perfectly good Yanmar 30HP diesel from my 32' sailboat and installed a 20HP permanent magnet 3 phase AC motor and controller along with a 3kw High voltage/High frequency diesel generator two years ago and now I drive a hybrid sailing yacht with a whole lot more range than I ever had with the original set up----and I'll NEVER GO BACK!
Change your mind, don't change your mind.....nobody really cares.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

...Soon enough you’ll be pissed with everyone out performing your Dino juice job and switch...

Really? Right now I have a beautiful gas engine car with all the luxuries and more power than I can use, yet even with low miles it is only worth about $5000.

And I am going to "just switch"? That looks to me like spending $40-$50,000 for an equivalent car. Hmmm? So you think everyone can just blithely decide to spend $40-$50,000 dollars at a drop of the hat? That seems a bit tone deaf.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

It charge at anchor, or underway, never plug in a dock. I produce more power when the sun is out using PV than the electric motor consumes at its top speed.

Sean, You've been talking for a while about how efficient your trimaran is.

But I remember seeing videos of it gliding silently across a glass calm stretch of water with a home built wooden electric drive. It didn't seem very practical.

Can you give us more detail about your boat? Photos, area devoted to solar, details about the engine, speed, range? Living arrangements? How practical is charging at anchor? Is regen real? Can you show us how it is a reasonable alternative to the typical cruising boat which most of us own and operate?

Can you discuss what changes to our usage patterns we'd need to accept?

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Can you show us how it is a reasonable alternative to the typical cruising boat which most of us own and operate?



Can you discuss what changes to our usage patterns we'd need to accept?

To the first question, it isn't.

To the second, it is less a question of the changes to our usage that would be required, than a question of what is the new paradigm.

Settle for transit times 2 to 3 times longer than current. Settle for never going where the wind doesn't support. Understand that marinas are part of the new paradigm (if you need to recharge before tomorrow's run). (A big problem where I am, as the last four shore ties I have had the only power is a 15 amp plug -- or in New England for marinas are only mooring fields). Ignore regulations requiring you to motor through canals. Understand that Erie Canal, Panama Canal, etc are not an option

The ironic thing is that if you use your engine the way you would be required to use an electric motor, your annual fuel consumption would be so small as to be not worth the change.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

To the first question, it isn't.

To the second, it is less a question of the changes to our usage that would be required, than a question of what is the new paradigm.

Settle for transit times 2 to 3 times longer than current. Settle for never going where the wind doesn't support. Understand that marinas are part of the new paradigm (if you need to recharge before tomorrow's run). (A big problem where I am, as the last four shore ties I have had the only power is a 15 amp plug -- or in New England for marinas are only mooring fields). Ignore regulations requiring you to motor through canals. Understand that Erie Canal, Panama Canal, etc are not an option

The ironic thing is that if you use your engine the way you would be required to use an electric motor, your annual fuel consumption would be so small as to be not worth the change.

Thanks Harry, My question was directed at seandepagnier who touts his installation on his 34 tri, but we know little about its suitability as a cruising yacht or how we'd be able to cruise on it using electricity, and he is pretty willing to lecture us about our wasteful practices but quite silent when it comes to details about his alternative.

[Ericson38]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

It charge at anchor, or underway, never plug in a dock. I produce more power when the sun is out using PV than the electric motor consumes at its top speed.

How many sq feet of solar panels do you have ?

According to-

https://topportablesolarpanels.com/h...%20sea%20level.

“The amount of energy that falls from the sun on the earth is around 126.4w per square foot. A solar panel can absorb around 92.94 watts per sq. ft at sea level. Assuming a solar panel with a 22.5% PV cell efficiency. Based on the watts produced per sq. ft and the efficiency. The panel can produce around 20.91w per square foot.”

If you had a 5.0 HP DC motor with 88% efficiency, with 760 watts per HP as the conversion factor from power to HP, you would need 207 sq feet of panels in order to generate 4750 watts of power to feed the 5 HP electric motor continuously.

[SaylorMade]

So, the project is about to start.
Boat goes on the hard today, and during the weekend the old Volvo will be removed from the boat.

In the next week or two, the new electric engine will go in.

The parts in the system will be:
Torqeedo 6KW Pod drive with Flexofold propellor
12 KWH LiFePo4 battery pack at 48 volt.

I wonder if it would be of interest if I made a seperate thread, documenting the project, including actual numbers of consumption and range when it is complete?

[250224]

Originally Posted by SaylorMade

I wonder if it would be of interest if I made a seperate thread, documenting the project, including actual numbers of consumption and range when it is complete?

Yes, please document

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

I think you are absurd and/or confused.

You are comparing apple to orange so first of all, there is no clear better/worse. Something that is extracted once and recharged thousands of times (and eventually recycled again) to something that is extracted and burned away and released in the environment with the CO2 released having a cumulative effect which _is_ causing major disruptions to the environment??

Or is it because you use fossil fuels are are trying to justify it? Its nonsense to seriously consider that at present time the total effects of lithium mining has more disruption than all the oil drilling/fracking refining.

Not only does your electric battery require lithium, it requires other rare earth minerals like Cobalt. Lithium is mined in Canada, Cobalt mainly in Africa.

In order to extract these minerals, they must dig a giant pit in the ground that is often tens of acres in size and hundreds of feet deep. Mine sites are also known for having toxic leech ponds full of nasty chemicals.

The loaders and trucks that mine them run on diesel fuel, then they are run through a refining process that also uses a substantial amount of energy, then another diesel powered loader has to take the raw materials and transport it to a conveyor where it has to be loaded onto a diesel powered train.

That diesel powered train will then cross a thousand miles of continent, to be off loaded, and there another diesel loader will move the material to a conveyor to be loaded onto a ship, then that ship powered by bunker oil has to drive half way around the planet to a dock in China, where it is unloaded, then diesel fired loaders move the material to diesel powered trucks that haul it to the factories where it is dumped, then another diesel loader loads it into the refining process.

Then the factory makes the batteries, which components of also come from chemicals such as plastics and glues that are very dependent on the petroleum industry, then once the batteries are produced they are packaged in cardboard boxes that were made in the USA from trees grown in the south, that were sent to a pulp mill, and converted to paper rolls, which were then put on a truck, and trucked across the country to be loaded on a ship.

That ship that runs on bunker oil then had to sail half way around the world to China, where another truck will be loaded with a diesel powered forklift, that will then haul the rolls to a box factory, that will create the boxes, which will then be loaded with a diesel forklift onto another diesel truck, that will take them to the battery factory.

And by the way all of this process in China is powered by coal fired power plants, and where do the Chinese get this coal? They get it from Wyoming.

Where a bucket wheel excavator removes vast ribbons of earth from the prairie to harvest the coal, forever changing the landscape, which is then loaded into a giant diesel powered dump truck, that then drives to a pile and dumps it, where a loader runs it to a screening/crushing plant, that then puts it in a pile, where another loader will load it onto a conveyor that loads a diesel powered train, that will transport the coal over the Rockies into British Colombia, where it is then dumped into a pile, where another massive diesel loader will load it onto a conveyor that will load it onto a massive ship that burns bunker oil, to haul it half way around the world to China.

When the ship gets to China, another massive loader will trans load the coal onto a train, where it will be transported by diesel locomotive to a power plant, where another giant loader will shovel it into a furnace at the coal fired power plant all day.

Before your battery can be put in the box, it will need a Styrofoam protector to keep it from being damaged in the box in shipping, Styrofoam is made from Styrene, another petroleum product, and so is the tape that holds the box shut.

Now that your battery has been produced, another forklift, has to come load it into a shipping container, that will be spotted on the dock by a diesel powered yard mule, then it will be picked up by a diesel powered truck, where it will be transported to the port on the coast, then the container will be unloaded from the chassis by another diesel powered forklift, that will then place it in a stack, then when the ship date comes, another diesel forklift will come pick it up and place it on a chassis pulled by another yard mule, which will transport it to the crane which is powered by the coal fired power plant.

The crane will then load the container onto a ship that will then have to sail half way back around the world to the USA, then it will have to be unloaded by another crane, that will then load it onto a chassis, that will bring it to a forklift, that will then bring it to a stack to wait until it has cleared customs.

Once the container has cleared customs another diesel forklift will come and load it onto another chassis, that will then be pulled by a diesel truck to a warehouse.

At that warehouse the container will be unloaded by another forklift, probably powered by propane, which will then stack up the pallets of batteries in the warehouse.

Then another truck will back into the dock with a box trailer, and the forklift will load the batteries onto that trailer, then that diesel truck will transport the batteries hundreds or even thousands of miles to another warehouse, where it will be unloaded by another propane forklift, then when you place your order for the batteries, the forklift pulls the pallet, and the batteries are broken out of it and loaded onto a UPS or FedEx truck and sent to you.

The fuel for my Yanmar comes out of a well that was sunk in Montana, North Dakota or Alberta, carried by a pipe line to a refinery in Anacortes, refined there, and transported by a truck to a fuel dock where it is pumped into the fuel companies tanks, and I purchase it from there.

When I am running my boat quite a bit, I go through about 600-1000 gallons of diesel a year. IF I am running it hard.

The process of getting you your batteries used far more than that.

again nonsensical: on boats we generate power from solar panels without concern for "electricity rates"

Why are my batteries full every day and half my solar panels stored below, and only half the ones that are out are wired up?

Well I would say probably because you have a slip/mooring queen that hardly ever goes anywhere, and you aren't running a lot of electronics onboard.

Some places with consistent wind, an electric is probably fine for getting in and out of a slip, but in the PNW, in Puget Sound, I have seen many a person do the electric conversion, and then their boats sit at the slip and never get used.

The boat that was next to me in Port Townsend went to 3 owners in the 4 years I was there because it has the electric Drive, it's an Ingrid 38, a true sailing boat rigged as a gaff cutter, and even has a topmast.

The first two owners constantly complained to me about not being able to go anywhere, despite having the top of her covered in solar panels, and having a sizable battery bank onboard.

More than once she came back in being towed by Sea Tow because her batteries ran flat after the wind did and they couldn't get back to the dock.

Fickle winds and an electric sailboat are a sure fire recipe for a boat that sits and languishes at the dock.

Meanwhile I am sailing mine to Alaska right now up the inside passage, a trip that you are never doing with an electric motor unless it has a gas/diesel generator onboard to keep it turning.

I have solar on my boat, and for the power it produces, I love it. During daylight hours it is just enough to keep my equipment running without draining the batteries if I am not running the engine.

But I also have a 120 amp alternator which is painfully too small because on the days when it is cloudy and I have to work on my computer, I can look forward to a few hours running the engine to recharge.

I think Lithium batteries are great tech, and I am looking forward to replacing my led acid's with them now that I have the proper wiring and devices installed in my boat to handle them, but I am not going to sit here and pretend that I am saving the environment with them.

That is just silly and absurd.

[danstanford]

The only explanation for these diatribes on the problems with electric propulsion I can think of is guilt. I can think of no other reason for trying to dissuade someone from their chosen path when it does not impact you.

[Skipper Lee]

Hey Saylormade,
Good luck with your E-conversion. I'm just starting year 3 with my conversion and have had no unexpected issues or regrets!

I am launching for the season next weekend so I checked my batteries which after the motor into the wind to the ramp last October (only 12 miles though) and after my boat and batteries sat outside in my backyard through the Alberta Canada winter unattended and with temps to -35 many, many times the meter says 50.2 V.
I'll just charge them back up with my 2 X 15 amps 48V chargers. I'll plug the shore power cable into my house with my special $30.00 adaptor for however long it takes then likely need to recharge them back up twice this season with my inverter generator on the dock.
And repeat!!!

I just thought I might encourage you a bit if I can.

[SaylorMade]

So the new thread, documenting the project can be found here.

Conversion project - documented

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by SaylorMade

So, the project is about to start.

Boat goes on the hard today, and during the weekend the old Volvo will be removed from the boat.



In the next week or two, the new electric engine will go in.



The parts in the system will be:

Torqeedo 6KW Pod drive with Flexofold propellor

12 KWH LiFePo4 battery pack at 48 volt.



I wonder if it would be of interest if I made a seperate thread, documenting the project, including actual numbers of consumption and range when it is complete?

Actual consumption and range numbers would be nice.

For that boat I would expect that 1kW will push you 3.25-3.5kt.

Long term it would nice to know about motor seal life.

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by danstanford

The only explanation for these diatribes on the problems with electric propulsion I can think of is guilt. I can think of no other reason for trying to dissuade someone from their chosen path when it does not impact you.

Or maybe it is that we have seen it not work out so well for someone else, and have watched what is otherwise a perfectly fine sailing boat sit and languish at the dock because the owners could not be sure they were going to get back to that dock without calling sea tow.

I have no guilt about having a diesel in my boat, even though I prefer to sail, I live on my boat, I use my boat every day, I cannot have a system that requires plugging into the dock all the time to be able to get around, and that might not be able to get me back into port.

And as there are many areas in this world that have fickle winds, sometimes it means having to motor someplace.

If a battery powered system was superior, I would have one in my boat.