Going electric - change my mind

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

And there is the rub for distance cruisers. Charging while you parked means a marina at $100 a day. That's a lot more expensive than diesel!
.

It charge at anchor, or underway, never plug in a dock. I produce more power when the sun is out using PV than the electric motor consumes at its top speed.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Renegde_Sailor

An oil well has far less disruption on the environment than a open pit mine, don't be absurd.

I think you are absurd and/or confused.

You are comparing apple to orange so first of all, there is no clear better/worse. Something that is extracted once and recharged thousands of times (and eventually recycled again) to something that is extracted and burned away and released in the environment with the CO2 released having a cumulative effect which _is_ causing major disruptions to the environment??

Or is it because you use fossil fuels are are trying to justify it? Its nonsense to seriously consider that at present time the total effects of lithium mining has more disruption than all the oil drilling/fracking refining.

Not to mention as more folks convert to electric, electricity rates are going to skyrocket, the same thing happened to the price of food when they started putting ethanol made

again nonsensical: on boats we generate power from solar panels without concern for "electricity rates"

The capacity to create this energy is just not there.

Why are my batteries full every day and half my solar panels stored below, and only half the ones that are out are wired up?

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The electric motor is every aspect is superior to the combustion engine. Hence electric farm machinery heavy haulage etc are all amenable to electric propulsion. The only issue is the energy store. That will be solved in many different ways. Different working arrangements , etc.

In many countries renewables now make up significant percentages of generating capability and it’s only increasing

Ev s for personal transport will do the 80 %case today and 95% within 10 years. No doubt a laborious and arduous licensing arrangement will allow the remaining 5% access to Dino juice vehicles.

Clearly you’ve never driven an EV. It will out accelerate out perform your legacy engine , quieter more refined and lower running costs

Soon enough you’ll be pissed with everyone out performing your Dino juice job and switch.

In my case no virtue signalling was involved ,,the car saved us 400-500 euros a month due to a long daily commute.

Why would I want to drive an EV? I am not about to lay out the price of a new EV just to test its performance. I operate within financial constraints that limit such an expensive experiment. Presently, I do not drive enough to save enough on fuel to justify the cost of a new EV. I've been able to purchase all my vehicles over the past couple decades for cash. No expensive financing. No huge depreciation losses. A new EV would only get me into the bank slavery trap. I do not even like modern combustion vehicles with video screen dash boards and a multitude of electronic features. I like the simplicity of older technology. If I need to study a thick owners manual just to get from here to there, it is not a productive use of time.


Good point on the advantages of electric motors. A quite motor that produces little waste heat certainly has its advantages. But without viable charge storage for long distance applications, such advantages are of little value. Ambitious projections on future use are only based upon assumptions that storage technology will become viable with regard to charge capacity and charging time. These are only projections that are not based upon reality. Back in the 70's some people thought that by now cars would be gone, and we would be flying around in small personal air craft like "the Jetsons". As for performance, how much better performance is needed? We are regulated to drive within speed limits. Acceleration rates are limited by safety considerations. Of what value is it to accelerate from 0 to 60 MPH in less than 2 seconds if in most situations it is unsafe to do so? Besides, quick acceleration robs efficiency.



As EV's are promoted, we are not seeing corresponding upgrades to the grid to deliver the increased demand. Recent addition of wind turbines and solar is only costly supplemental capacity. To charge EV's at night and when there is no wind; oil, gas, and coal smoke is produced, or nuclear plants continue producing dangerous DU. Even while part time "green" producers operate, conventional reliable sources continue idling as a ready back up. Until the technology significantly improves, EV's will only be useful for limited applications. An EV that is useful for daily commutes is of little use for longer trips.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

Why are my batteries full every day and half my solar panels stored below, and only half the ones that are out are wired up?

Because you are a fringe case and not representative of even a small percentage of cruisers. My 500W of solar won't keep up with my house loads, and I doubt your motor at full speed would have done the length of the Delaware Bay in 6 hours in flat calm like we did yesterday. Yes, it is possible to motor on solar at 3 knots on sunny days, and if I eliminated my fridge and my electric coffee pot and lots of other conveniences my demand would go down.

Of course, at home, horrors of horrors, I run heat, a/c, a fridge, a freezer, a TV, and I even drive a car! There, I could sell the fridge, have the power company disconnect my electricity, sell the car, and bicycle everywhere.

Just because we CAN live a life of poverty does not mean we want to.

[SV Tom Crean]

Sorry but that’s just not right. I have had an EV for over 4 years ( a Tesla Model X and soon to be changed for a Y). I have driven to work every day year after year. I charged it once a week at home as there were very few fast chargers and I’ve also driven it all over Ireland, the UK and through France/Italy/Spain on long trips.

My cost per mile is a fraction of what my old Merc cost me and it’s only getting better with fuel prices going crazy so it has saved me a ton of €.

I would not and will never go back to an ICE car again.

Edit: going with an ICE car or truck is up to each individual and you choose it because you prefer it or whatever but not because EVs suck. That’s just trying to back up your decision by dissing something else.

Now electric boats (propulsion), I’m not there yet. The energy density of diesel and its availability just has advantages in boats that electric struggles to match. An electric drive connected to an ICE genset might work.

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

Snip…

Until the technology significantly improves, EV's will only be useful for limited applications. An EV that is useful for daily commutes is of little use for longer trips.

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

I think you are absurd and/or confused.

You are comparing apple to orange so first of all, there is no clear better/worse. Something that is extracted once and recharged thousands of times (and eventually recycled again) to something that is extracted and burned away and released in the environment with the CO2 released having a cumulative effect which _is_ causing major disruptions to the environment??

That charging process over and over and over again, especially for things like electric cars, gets a lot of it's electricity from coal, and the power grid is nowhere near being able to handle it. Not even close.

Or is it because you use fossil fuels are are trying to justify it? Its nonsense to seriously consider that at present time the total effects of lithium mining has more disruption than all the oil drilling/fracking refining.

again nonsensical: on boats we generate power from solar panels without concern for "electricity rates"

Why are my batteries full every day and half my solar panels stored below, and only half the ones that are out are wired up?

I have solar on my boat, I use it to cut the amount of time I have to run my engine, it helps keep my fridge cold and lights on. This has also made me very aware of it's limits as I have been using it the last 6 years.

Solar works great in the low latitudes, get north of 45° and it needs help because on cloudy days, it becomes effectively worthless.

The boat sitting next to me has a full electric conversion, it is an Ingrid 38, nice boat, good sailboat, good ocean boat, and it has had 3 owners in just as many years because they buy it, and then discover the electric drive is worthless for getting them places when there is no wind, and in Puget Sound the wind can be real fickle several months out of the year, especially in the latter part of the summer.

You can also get cloud cover here that hangs out for a week at a time, which means they get stuck going dock to dock, paying by the KWH to recharge their batteries.

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by SV Tom Crean

Sorry but that’s just not right. I have had an EV for over 4 years ( a Tesla Model X and soon to be changed for a Y). I have driven to work every day year after year. I charged it once a week at home as there were very few fast chargers and I’ve also driven it all over Ireland, the UK and through France/Italy/Spain on long trips.

My cost per mile is a fraction of what my old Merc cost me and it’s only getting better with fuel prices going crazy so it has saved me a ton of €.

I would not and will never go back to an ICE car again.

Edit: going with an ICE car or truck is up to each individual and you choose it because you prefer it or whatever but not because EVs suck. That’s just trying to back up your decision by dissing something else.

Now electric boats (propulsion), I’m not there yet. The energy density of diesel and its availability just has advantages in boats that electric struggles to match. An electric drive connected to an ICE genset might work.

Thanks for your input. You have proven my statement that EV's are only useful in limited applications. Your EV works for you application. You regularly drive short distances in a mild climate. You have time to wait for charging when you go on long trips. Fantastic! Though this is not the situation for everyone. But you have to concede on the continued need of combustion propulsion for boats. When you use an ICE genset to run an electric drive, you get large efficiency losses. Such an arrangement would make no sense from an energy consumption view point. The generator has thermal loss, as do the charger and the drive motor. There is less loss to drive the propeller directly with the ICE.

[Baby tug]

Y’all do whatever you want personally I’m keeping my motor sailor a fisher with a horrible internal combustion engine Perkins , I should be able to keep it running As long as I live , that boat will take me anywhere in the world that I want to go if I choose to do that, I can motor when it is more practical to motor I can sail when it is more practical to sail , Spare me with the Electrical Drive bs . An electric car cost at least $12,000 more than my gasoline car with that $12,000 I can buy a lot of fuel it makes no financial sense to go to electric at this point especially since the batteries are only good for about 10 years and then you’re done no thank you . As to the boat in question trade it off on inboard diesel or if you want to keep it put an outboard on it end of discussion anything else is ridiculous nothing personal just my opinion

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by Baby tug

Y’all do whatever you want personally I’m keeping my motor sailor a fisher with a horrible internal combustion engine Perkins , I should be able to keep it running As long as I live , that boat will take me anywhere in the world that I want to go if I choose to do that, I can motor when it is more practical to motor I can sail when it is more practical to sail , Spare me with the Electrical Drive bs . An electric car cost at least $12,000 more than my gasoline car with that $12,000 I can buy a lot of fuel it makes no financial sense to go to electric at this point especially since the batteries are only good for about 10 years and then you’re done no thank you . As to the boat in question trade it off on inboard diesel or if you want to keep it put an outboard on it end of discussion anything else is ridiculous nothing personal just my opinion

Yup, current electric drives can't match the reliability and versatility of combustion engines. When the hidden costs and performance deficiencies such as charge time and capacity are considered, electric is of limited utility. EV's and electric boats still get their charge from predominately conventional generation. They are really just an expensive side issue until storage capacity and charge time issues are vastly improved. For land vehicles, EV's might be fine for daily commutes in mild climates, but for long distance and cold weather, they are not there yet.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Because you are a fringe case and not representative of even a small percentage of cruisers. My 500W of solar won't keep up with my house loads, and I doubt your motor at full speed would have done the length of the Delaware Bay in 6 hours in flat calm like we did yesterday.

why are your house loads so high?

My motor at full speed is 3 knots. delaware bay as I recall had 3 knot current, but I only sailed up it once to go in the canal. Because of the current, there is an apparent wind generated you can tack against to achieve greater speed than the electric motor can over ground. (boat sails faster than the wind) It would only be if there were a wind that matches the tidal current that no sail power which is even much less likely and changes with the tide.

So you should have been going 6 knots over ground in delaware bay for about 30 miles with only sail, unless your boat doesn't sail well (slower than wind) or you have incredibly bad luck with wind matching tide in which case the 3 knot electric motor still provides 6 knots over ground but only for 3 hours because my battery is only 10lbs and the tide reverses which is no problem because: and this is key, because it works on any boat at all to enable it to navigate there, including slow sailing ships that have no motor: you anchor in contrary currents and wait for conditions to change.

electricity, sell the car, and bicycle everywhere.

Just because we CAN live a life of poverty does not mean we want to.

you are comparing bicycling everywhere to poverty? It is the opposite of that if "health is wealth"

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

why are your house loads so high?

My motor at full speed is 3 knots. delaware bay as I recall had 3 knot current, but I only sailed up it once to go in the canal. Because of the current, there is an apparent wind generated you can tack against to achieve greater speed than the electric motor can over ground. (boat sails faster than the wind) It would only be if there were a wind that matches the tidal current that no sail power which is even much less likely and changes with the tide.

So you should have been going 6 knots over ground in delaware bay for about 30 miles with only sail, unless your boat doesn't sail well (slower than wind) or you have incredibly bad luck with wind matching tide in which case the 3 knot electric motor still provides 6 knots over ground but only for 3 hours because my battery is only 10lbs and the tide reverses which is no problem because: and this is key, because it works on any boat at all to enable it to navigate there, including slow sailing ships that have no motor: you anchor in contrary currents and wait for conditions to change.


you are comparing bicycling everywhere to poverty? It is the opposite of that if "health is wealth"

My house loads are "high" because my living standards don't drop when I step on the boat (well, ok, they do drop some...). My fridge/freezer (something I also have at home) burns a steady 3-5 amps. My inverter is 5A at idle, and I don't always remember to turn it off when not needed. My chart plotters are an easy 2-3 A. Coffee in the AM burns an easy 20Ah. All in, before solar slows the drain, it's 209+ Ah/day.

Yeah, my boat is "slow". In 3kts of wind, I'm lucky to see even 1.5. But if your speed over bottom is under 5 or so, you will see a full cycle of tides going down the Delaware - certainly not three knots with you the whole way! If you routinely see speeds of six knots over the bottom in three knots of true wind, you are an amazingly awesome sailor!

There are indeed two different ways to look at sailing. You look at sailing as a challenge, and the challenge is the goal. We look at sailing as a means to an end. We have 4,000 miles to cover this summer, and less than 5 months to do it in. That is nearly a thousand miles a month -- or about 30 miles a day. Anchoring and waiting for the tide to shift, or staying in a harbor and waiting a few days for the wind to change, would mean canceling this trip and doing it perhaps in a gas guzzling RV.

As I said, your view is somewhat of a fringe view. Few people consider that those without the means for a car, who are forced to use walking and bicycling, are in a better position in life than those who drive 10 or 15 miles to work. Most considered the US to be a wealthy country, and Nigeria to be a poor country, few see it the way you do as the reverse of that.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

why are your house loads so high?

We need about 1.5Kwh to do full electric cooking so 500w would do it during the summer give or take. Winter? forget it, but we don't have a problem of going anyway and plugging in somewhere. On board we still use significantly less than at home.

Like Sailing Harry, we want the fridge and freezer, the electric kettle a dozen times a day and the induction stove. After all why not if its being powered by solar? We have used about 2Kgs of gas in the last year so have that smug feeling of doing our bit. There remains a bottled gas problem in the UK with only sketchy supplies so solar has come just in time.

Could we go electric propulsion? probably and something to keep an eye on.

Pete

[KTP]

We installed a relatively inexpensive electric thunderstruck 10kW brushless motor kit in our Pacific Seacraft 34. This was about 3 years ago now and then COVID hit and we didn't use the boat much (instead we have been building a house by ourselves). As the house finished up, we are gradually getting back to using the boat, although it has so many mussels on it that last weekend it was using 3kW to go 3 knots where that amount of power input would usually make it go 4 knots. Gonna have to get it hauled and cleaned. I had to knock 3 inches thick of mussels off the prop (zinc was ok!). The upside is I flipped a switch and spun the motor right up no problems at all. I think there may have been some issues with a diesel engine sitting for 2 years without cranking, but YMMV. I do love the low maintenance. The 12 AGM lifeline batteries have been sitting on float and were at 52V (48V @ 375AH bank).

The positives other than maintenance are the extreme ease of getting into and out of the marina, no warmup, exhaust, or noise. It is also very quiet when motor sailing in light wind, allowing you to point that much better when the wind just won't quite cooperate but you don't have to listen to the constant drone of chug chug chug.

The downside is range. I know we have the dirty hull right now but we took the boat out anyway in zero wind for a 7 mile round trip and used up 3500 watt-hr. At 50% discharge, our AGM bank is only good for about 9,000 watt-hr. We were only doing 3 knots too.

So overall, I am both happy and not happy.

I have been thinking of different solutions other than a much larger lithium bank (which would work for our needs but the cost is still very high).

Have thought about carrying a propane powered honda generator, but there are safety issues there even though we do have propane for the stove and all of the sensors. Figured propane would be less smelly than gas (emits half the CO also). I bet those generators leak though so it would need to live out on the stern while running or something.

I have thought about a small diesel generator (3.5kW would be plenty) mounted under the cabin table where the large fuel tank used to be. Supported by a small 10 gallon tank, this would give huge range and be very easy to work on as they only weigh about 190 pounds and you could get access in that location to all sides. I hate hate hated the yanmar engine location and the way it blocked all access to the stern.

I have also thought about a very small inboard engine (small enough for easy access around it, like a 14hp) with the 10kW electric motor coupled to the shaft after the engine. This is quite complicated but would be very cool...essentially you could run forever on the 14hp at like 5 knots, or you could run both the electric motor and the diesel at the same time to gain more power, or you could charge your 48V bank by running the diesel and siphoning off some power regen through the electric motor.

Or sell the boat and buy something on a trailer that doesn't grow 3 inches of mussels when you don't use it.

[KTP]

Dang, ok, the hybrid engine already exists:

https://pdf.nauticexpo.com/pdf/beta-...-26574-_2.html

[BG305]

Originally Posted by KTP

Dang, ok, the hybrid engine already exists:

https://pdf.nauticexpo.com/pdf/beta-...-26574-_2.html

The HH cats use this tech in their million dollar boats.