Turkey is looking at new rules -

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by chuckr

Have no idea what you are talking about except reading old news papers or where you live or sail as nothing in your profile.
Yea the cruise ships did pull out for perhaps a variety of reasons and security was probably one issue. But have you ever heard of an attack on a cruiser? We have not. And we are living in Turkey sailed north to Istanbul last summer and across the entire coast of Northern Turkey and what great friendly people.
And if it was an insurance question why would our insurance not take that into account as they have in the past when we sailed to Cartagena Colombia or when we sailed east of Georgia they would not insure us for theft or piracy. We actually feel safer this year than we did last and we felt safe last year and did a bit of traveling around Turkey even spend Christmas in Istanbul where we attended Christmas Eve midnight services in a Christian church.
In actually we feel safer here than when we were in Miami a while ago when one of the folks got robbed walking from the marina to a bar a couple of blocks away -
As for Greece - they did figure it out and cut marina costs and it is an inexpensive place to cruise but the only time in the Med we have had a worry was on a couple of Greek Islands when the migrants saw our USA flag and at one point began to gather on the dock at the back of our boat until the police saw it and ran them off. That would not happen in Turkey -

I'll give you an idea. I'm getting my info from a cruiser/liveaboard just like you who has spent the better part of the last 15 or so years being based in Turkey. He cruised the Med and when not cruising/living aboard he would keep his boat in Turkey always happy with the prices, service and security. Then all of sudden (to me and his other acquaintances) he moved first to Greece then to Caribbean stating safety, rising prices and deteriorating service as the reasons. May be he was unlucky, may be it was something personal (he has family both in Europe and in US) but knowing him since 2000 I take him for his word.

[valhalla360]

Would it make sense to break this into a separate thread for Terrorist Concerns in Turkey? It's a valid concern (though impact on cruisers is a more subtle subject) but at best tangentially related to a discussion of taxation laws of Turkey.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I'll give you an idea. I'm getting my info from a cruiser/liveaboard just like you who has spent the better part of the last 15 or so years being based in Turkey. He cruised the Med and when not cruising/living aboard he would keep his boat in Turkey always happy with the prices, service and security. Then all of sudden (to me and his other acquaintances) he moved first to Greece then to Caribbean stating safety, rising prices and deteriorating service as the reasons. May be he was unlucky, may be it was something personal (he has family both in Europe and in US) but knowing him since 2000 I take him for his word.

Everyone has different understanding of safety. Yr friend has taken a decision (like many others)to leave Turkey (even Greece..) but there are also others who have chosen to stay, like Chuck.
Caribbean in particular is not any safer at all neither than Turkey nor Greece.

See here the crime report against crusier in the Caribbean. https://www.safetyandsecuritynet.com/5180-2/

This has never been the case in Turkey.

Talking about airports, unfortunately this has also happened in Brussels and may happen any time anywhere until all these idiots (ISIL) are
out of sight. Moreover, a charterer or a cruiser is spending couple of hours in the airport while they spend much more time on their boats. So , where would you like to take a risk, in the airport for couple of hours or on yr boat while you sleep with yr wife in a secluded bay ?

Cheers

Yeloya

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by SV Bacchus

Your insight is appreciated, thanks!

Quick question on VAT (I know, I know, it has been beaten to death but wondering about this specific situation):

If a boat is bought and you are "passing through" on your way to the Carib, will they still require VAT to be paid? Meaning you have no intent to stop but some situation ends up demanding you get fuel or supplies or..

No.. just re register and flag before starting out with your nations documentation etc and your subject to the 18mth rule.. from the moment you make your first port of call..
You are a vessel in transit.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Everyone has different understanding of safety. Yr friend has taken a decision (like many others)to leave Turkey (even Greece..) but there are also others who have chosen to stay, like Chuck.
Caribbean in particular is not any safer at all neither than Turkey nor Greece.

See here the crime report against crusier in the Caribbean. https://www.safetyandsecuritynet.com/5180-2/

This has never been the case in Turkey.

Talking about airports, unfortunately this has also happened in Brussels and may happen any time anywhere until all these idiots (ISIL) are
out of sight. Moreover, a charterer or a cruiser is spending couple of hours in the airport while they spend much more time on their boats. So , where would you like to take a risk, in the airport for couple of hours or on yr boat while you sleep with yr wife in a secluded bay ?

Cheers

Yeloya

Exactly.. A+1..
Personally I feel happier on a boat doing a Transat than I do in the airports and plane required doing the same thing.. so much less to stress/worry about..
And.. that's before terrorism enters the equation..

[SV Bacchus]

Originally Posted by boatman61

No.. just re register and flag before starting out with your nations documentation etc and your subject to the 18mth rule.. from the moment you make your first port of call..
You are a vessel in transit.

Excellent, glad to hear the 18 month rule would be in effect. Not to "cheat the system" but if we liked the Med, which we probably will, we could just check out for a bit in a non-EU country. We could then check back in for another 18 months or have they figured out how to fight that loophole?

[Shrew]

1) Note that the new Turkish regulation is impacting Turkish citizens with boats in Turkish waters, flagged in another country. They are essentially hiding tax money from their government. The logistics of identifying and pursuing these individuals is their problem.

2) Cruise ships are dropping stops in Turkey because those trips are not filling up. You can't 'a la cart' the stops on cruise. They pick the itinerary for the week, you pick the package. There are simply so many to choose from, people are choosing cruises that don't have Turkey in it. Many westerners are afraid to go to Eastern Med. and Muslim countries with the political climate in the state it is in. It is an economic decision on the part of the cruise lines, not a political one. My wife has already said "NO" to Turkey....vehemently. She is not the exception.

[Kentm]

I'm sure your right about the market and cruise ships. We Americans are bombarded by scare tactics and Muslims. Cruise ships are often thought to be a safe way to visit less safe countries. There is actually a pretty fare amount of crime and danger on board a cruise ship. (Most not reported) And the most dangerous thing you can do (in any country) is drive a rental car.

[GTom]

I was wondering how risky is to enter a charter management in Turkey. There are some nice offers, e.g. 50% upfront payment + 5years charter service gives you a boat. But changing regulations might steer the whole enterprise to a cliff...

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by GTom

I was wondering how risky is to enter a charter management in Turkey. There are some nice offers, e.g. 50% upfront payment + 5years charter service gives you a boat. But changing regulations might steer the whole enterprise to a cliff...

The answer is "it depends"..

As someone on charter business, I can give you some clue. Assuming that;

-you will get the boat that you want to own in 5 years (some companies are pushing towards the type and model they think that will ensure the best return for them which may not be yr ideal boat)

-the buying price will be a fair one and that the company will not make extra margin on the purchasing price,

-the operator will take a good care of yr boat for 5 years,

Then it may be good deal.

He would need to fill the boat for at leat 13-14 weeks a year for a break even . (the season here is 25 weeks)
If he can make more weeks he makes money, if not, he may try to compensate this loss by sacrifiying from the routine maintenance of the boat.
All depends on the company are you dealing with and how reliable they are. If you PM me the name of the company, I can give to you more insight.
The risk is not on the regualations side, but on the overall geopolitical situation in Turkey and psyhco/sociological one in Europe. The turkish charter companies depends mostly on European customers and these are still under the trauma of what is happening with ISIL, refugee crisis, the terrorist attacks not only in Turkey but also in Paris, Brussels, Berlin, Nice, etc..

Cheers

Yeloya

[250224]

Originally Posted by yeloya

The turkish charter companies depends mostly on European customers and these are still under the trauma of what is happening with ISIL, refugee crisis, the terrorist attacks not only in Turkey but also in Paris, Brussels, Berlin, Nice, etc..

Some European customers may just not like the thought to make holidays in a country which is on its way to a dictatureship. Not a question of trauma but a question of 'don't support such a regime'.

I admit, it likely hits the wrong persons and it's currently a bit theoretical as I own a boat and are not likely to charter, but it's not impossible either, and sorry, even if prices are very cheap, I would flat out exclude Turkey from consideration. The referendum is not yet done (I'm pessimistic) but the press liberties are already too bad now. I don't want to make holidays in such a country. And I have been there before, it's beautiful. But if citizens make a choice - it's their choice - I make mine.

[GTom]

That's right, panic/geopolitics plays a key role here, but I tend to be optimistic on that one. The current situation is stressed - that might give a favorable negotiation position for boat-layout choice (I am not overly optimistic about financials...).

As for repairs, it's a catch 22: more weeks used = proportionally more damage from the guests, more engine hours. From the owner's point of view, delayed routine maintenance might be the lesser evil...

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by blu3534

Some European customers may just not like the thought to make holidays in a country which is on its way to a dictatureship. Not a question of trauma but a question of 'don't support such a regime'.

I admit, it likely hits the wrong persons and it's currently a bit theoretical as I own a boat and are not likely to charter, but it's not impossible either, and sorry, even if prices are very cheap, I would flat out exclude Turkey from consideration. The referendum is not yet done (I'm pessimistic) but the press liberties are already too bad now. I don't want to make holidays in such a country. And I have been there before, it's beautiful. But if citizens make a choice - it's their choice - I make mine.

That's interesting.. In the last couple of years I have been several times in France, Germany, have been in boat shows (Paris and Düsseldorf) , talked to our agencies and directly with some of our loyal customers. Yes, there are some customers who shares yr view, particularly in Germany saying "we don't want to be in a country under the dictatorship". As you said, everyone has their choice and for some people that could be a legitimate and good reason for not visiting a certain country. Some people has even told me that they want to penalise "this dictator" by not visiting his country. Unfortunately, this latter is not the case for two reasons; first, touristic incomes of Turkey is only 8 % of total GNP, hence is not as relevant as it is in Greece or Craotia. Secondly, the "dictator" is not penalised at all, I'd suspect he does care about too much because the ones who are penalised are the people living in coastal area who never votes for him. He has roughly 50% votes, 70% in rural / central Anatolia and only 20-35% in areas like Marmaris, Bodrum, etc.. where the cruisers are mostly visiting.


For the rest, you may not be traumatised and I am glad for that, but you are the minority. Check out the outbound tourist numbers from Germany and France, 30-35 % down vs couple of years ago. There is definately people still going out, not to Turkey but many others prefering to stay at home. As I said, I travel quite a bit, check the tourist numbers in skiing resorts, in Paris, in Rome, in côte d'Azur, etc.. And check also the hotel prices in these popular places vs. couple of years ago. I've paid 50 € per room in Christmas in a 5 stars hotel in front of Vatican in Rome and the hotels and restaurants were deserted.. The same hotel used to be 300 €, couple of years ago, if you were able to get a room..
Turkey was down last year by 33 % in touristic incomes and most of it was due to russians.(Mr. Putin had banned them to travel to Turkey after Turkey had shot down their military aircraft in Syria)
In my view, regardles of the result of referendum, the russians who will continue to come this year, Turkey will not catch the numbers that she had 5 -6 years ago in another 5-6 years to come. I am saying this by the combinations of the factors that I've said + the ones that you mentioned. How much of that for what, doesn't really matter..

Cheers

Yeloya

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Everyone has different understanding of safety. Yr friend has taken a decision (like many others)to leave Turkey (even Greece..) but there are also others who have chosen to stay, like Chuck.
Caribbean in particular is not any safer at all neither than Turkey nor Greece.

I sure agree with that. The Western Hemisphere is altogether like a different universe, from the Eastern, what concerns crime risk. Turkey is a very, very safe place, a very orderly place, where crime is concerned, much safer than the U.S. actually. I love the Caribbean too, but many parts of the Caribbean are NOT very safe places. Even U.S. waters call for attention to security, which is not necessary anywhere in Europe. In the Baltic, people hardly even lock their companionways, even when leaving the boat for long periods of time. Cruising in Florida waters, my father used to keep a gun in the boat. Big difference.