Unintended consequences that effect real people.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by ahun

Northern Territory is the first state to have an election since governments had to handle the crisis. It looks like people voted in favour of the strict ways. Labor is re-elected.

Yeah that about sums up the general populace of Australia or maybe I am wrong and the Liberal candidate was an even bigger tool?

[Chotu]

*affect

[ahun]

Kind of surprised me, anyone I talked to, they said they go to vote to get this clown out of office. Go figure...

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by UFO

Yep Video works - It's very well put together.


It also sums up the Idiot we have in charge here in WA - These politicians need prosecuting for what they are doing.

I think our WA governor is using a good method for gauging the reopening in our state.
Data driven, reporting by individual counties.
Given the Nature of this Virus.

The only True Idiot, is still in Power, in Washington DC
The rest of us are affected by the Bad Policies of the Current Compleatly self driven election ratings of the WH.
Those partisan policy's, make the individual choices very difficult for each state to deal with this Pandemic.

Protect yourselves, as it's not happening from the Top, as it should be.
SV Cloud Duster

[wolfgal]

Christmas Island: geez, wanna go!!!! beautiful and strongly agree how unfair the hammer-to-the fly policies can be.


Danielle Dimartino Booth was recently posed a similar question. she responded with something that pointed out how much of the information that was needed to properly assess the response (in the states) was withheld by china.

i am not agreeing or disagreeing with her, (as it hit europe, where i am, well before it hit the Americas..., ahem), but i am pointing to how necessary it is to learn something from the various ways the pandemic was handled, before the second-wave hits.

this is my opinion:
whereas govts initially responded with the idea of preventing the spread of the virus at all costs (to flatten the curve), now they (and people) realise that there is much fall-out, much more fall-out from a lockdown than ever anticipated.

personally, i think we need to talk about collateral damage. even here in the old world where we have social systems that are keeping people in their jobs, in their homes for the time being, i'm seeing clear winners and losers, in the direction of the widening wealth gap. i'm also seeing a lot more people with depression.

and now that the first wave has basically made its rounds, could it be that mandatory mask-wearing, washing-hands thing, don't-touch-face thing, and the meter-apart thing is more beneficial for society as a whole than a lockdown?

this is the question i ask.

perhaps a good way to move forward with this discussion would be to include even small examples of what certain countries did or are doing something right.

for example, i applaud the UK for recently coming forth with a national campaign to reduce obesity. to me, it is high time that this problem be stated and seriously tackled.




wolfie

[hpeer]

Dale,

One of the many problems is gross over generalization and a unwillingness or inability to Look into details.

I’ll use ISA numbers for example.

The overall average ISA rate is about 550/million deaths. That sounds pretty bad.

But I’m staying in North Carolina, it’s about 230/million for this state.
For the state of anew Jersey it’s 1,850/m. 8 time North Carolina.

If I look at my particulars, under 70, fairly fit, not other problems, the death rate for my cohort is very roughly 30/m, well below the flue death rate or the risk of driving.

Now if I were to take an 80+ person in NEw York City, over weight, hypertensive, diabetic, in a nursing home, well he cohorts number are going to be very roughly around 200,000/m or a 1:5 chance of dying.

A 12 yo girl living in Montana has almost zero risk.

I suppose other countries are similar.

Knowing this above, which is readily available information, it SHOULD be fairly easy to design a protocol that isolates the high risk folks, and their care givers, and rewards the care givers amply, for a tiny fraction of the cost of hitting the entire population.

In fact part of the reason for the gross death rate in NYC is the governor REQUIRED long term care facilities to take back infected patients being released from hospitals despite the facility Owners fighting the move AND there being excess Quarantine beds available. It’s almost like he wanted to make things as bad as humanly possible. Yet he is lauded for his response.

I don’t get it.

Somewhere through this mess human emotions are over riding logic and reason. And that is something that I am clueless to describe and powerless to control.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Paul, I'm not talking about one individual business, in fact the original example was xmas island not the gym, please explain the lodgic behind the xmas island travel restrictions? I'm not saying let it RIP, never did BUT IMO theres some serious overkill, ie shutting the Qld border, have a look at the numbers.

How long do we close down? Do we close down everytime we get 2-3 cases? Do we just hand out money indefinitely, New Zealand pretty well proved elimination dosent work.

We have to manage both, its important. Many seem to be ignoring the economic data, the virus numbers are reported repeatedly daily yet the economic numbers are hardly mentioned. Small to medium business are the real economy not the stock market.

Not only is it my right to criticize aspects of the handling of this in Australia, it's my duty, it's not a dictatorship it's a democracy, we have a say and governments need to be held accountable.

Is there any other country that wont let their citizens fly out of the country? Is there any other country talking about mandatory vaccine injections? this concerns me.

I couldn't even get a marina price list from private marina yesterday without consulting gold coast maritime, a government agency?

Dale
Of course you should critize your own country's approach to policy. And even more important vote. That goes without saying.

And looking at the economic fallout of policies along with the health issues is important. In many cases the decisions are swayed to the economic side. Dig giant holes in the country and export millions of tons of coal for a tidy profit versus the air pollution health effects, for example.

My point on the gym was that you can bemoan the effects on small business and blame them on the government's response, but even without the response you would still have the virus and you would still have a small business that can't function. The virus doesn't care.

Another example is the call to get students back to school because it is so important for them. Nice desire. Wishes don't make rationale policy. A number of universities in the US opened up and ended having to shutdown within 2 weeks. The virus didn't care if open schools were good for the students and schools, or not.

Countries that take the public health side of dealing with this virus seriously are far more likely to get back sooner to closer to normal economy than ones who base their approach on denial and inept policy.

It's the old cart before the horse thing, deal with the fundamentals, not the side effects if you want to be successful.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

Christmas Island: geez, wanna go!!!! beautiful and strongly agree how unfair the hammer-to-the fly policies can be.


Danielle Dimartino Booth was recently posed a similar question. she responded with something that pointed out how much of the information that was needed to properly assess the response (in the states) was withheld by china.

i am not agreeing or disagreeing with her, (as it hit europe, where i am, well before it hit the Americas..., ahem), but i am pointing to how necessary it is to learn something from the various ways the pandemic was handled, before the second-wave hits.

this is my opinion:
whereas govts initially responded with the idea of preventing the spread of the virus at all costs (to flatten the curve), now they (and people) realise that there is much fall-out, much more fall-out from a lockdown than ever anticipated.

personally, i think we need to talk about collateral damage. even here in the old world where we have social systems that are keeping people in their jobs, in their homes for the time being, i'm seeing clear winners and losers, in the direction of the widening wealth gap. i'm also seeing a lot more people with depression.

and now that the first wave has basically made its rounds, could it be that mandatory mask-wearing, washing-hands thing, don't-touch-face thing, and the meter-apart thing is more beneficial for society as a whole than a lockdown?

this is the question i ask.

perhaps a good way to move forward with this discussion would be to include even small examples of what certain countries did or are doing something right.

for example, i applaud the UK for recently coming forth with a national campaign to reduce obesity. to me, it is high time that this problem be stated and seriously tackled.




wolfie

Great post, yes let's gauge how it's gone and ask questions, did we respond the best way, is a more individual approach or individual responsibility approach a better way rather than harsh lockdowns that have alot of collateral damage?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Dale
Of course you should critize your own country's approach to policy. And even more important vote. That goes without saying.

And looking at the economic fallout of policies along with the health issues is important. In many cases the decisions are swayed to the economic side. Dig giant holes in the country and export millions of tons of coal for a tidy profit versus the air pollution health effects, for example.

My point on the gym was that you can bemoan the effects on small business and blame them on the government's response, but even without the response you would still have the virus and you would still have a small business that can't function. The virus doesn't care.

Another example is the call to get students back to school because it is so important for them. Nice desire. Wishes don't make rationale policy. A number of universities in the US opened up and ended having to shutdown within 2 weeks. The virus didn't care if open schools were good for the students and schools, or not.

Countries that take the public health side of dealing with this virus seriously are far more likely to get back sooner to closer to normal economy than ones who base their approach on denial and inept policy.

It's the old cart before the horse thing, deal with the fundamentals, not the side effects if you want to be successful.

Paul, once again I'm not advocating a denial strategy, never was, it's time to rethink, the strategy eg. as mentioned before the New Zealand elimination strategy didnt work, it came back anyway, yes small numbers but I'd argue theres a number of factors in play that are keeping numbers small, not just government policy.

I'm advocating a less machine gun approach and a more specific approach, ask questions like Wolfgal is suggesting and more, did Sweden do ok? how did Japan handle it, how did that workout? does xmas island need to be shut down and businesses like Chris's need to be destroyed,, does the Qld border really need to be shut for NSW residents that require urgent medical treatment? Are cruisers in the Pacific the same as people wanting to fly in from LA? All these questions and more need to asked and answered, and answered now not on bureaucratic time line.

Yes, hard to be a leader right now BUT stiff, I dont care, they signed up for the job, do it well or get out the way and let someone else do it, it's not about you and votes and I see some if this happening on both sides of politics. It's time like this where we need leaders, not politicians.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by daletournier

(...) the real economy, millions of businesses are getting killed, I'm seeing it here in Fiji right now.

Hi,


EU here, Canary Islands, outskirts of EU economy.

Most of my friends here run / used to run their own businesses. Many of them are small businesses - one man shows or family businesses.



From May till now, 6 of them got killed. Some are just just making it. They will give up soon. We all know it. We are just sticking to it to give our friends some emotional support, and to have something to do under lock-down.



A company (a large US company) slashed what they pay us for what we make by 50% - with a two week warning. But at 50% of the old rate, our 'business' cannot work - we would be only funding that big company with our time, equipment and effort.


Meanwhile the stock exchanges and gold are soaring. Ask yourself who is buying stock and gold. Not my friends from the small businesses, nor me.


I think this addresses your concern. Is this cruising related? YES. There will be no cruising. Not for the small fish. We can cruise on little money, but we cannot cruise without money.


Meanwhile local parliament gave itself a rise. Local administration and police forces are also doing fine.



Big business is being saved with the 'quantitative easing" money. Small business is left to their own devices.



I hope things look differently elsewhere though.



barnakiel

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Hi,


EU here, Canary Islands, outskirts of EU economy.

Most of my friends here run / used to run their own businesses. Many of them are small businesses - one man shows or family businesses.



From May till now, 6 of them got killed. Some are just just making it. They will give up soon. We all know it. We are just sticking to it to give our friends some emotional support, and to have something to do under lock-down.



A company (a large US company) slashed what they pay us for what we make by 50% - with a two week warning. But at 50% of the old rate, our 'business' cannot work - we would be only funding that big company with our time, equipment and effort.


Meanwhile the stock exchanges and gold are soaring. Ask yourself who is buying stock and gold. Not my friends from the small businesses, nor me.


I think this addresses your concern. Is this cruising related? YES. There will be no cruising. Not for the small fish. We can cruise on little money, but we cannot cruise without money.


Meanwhile local parliament gave itself a rise. Local administration and police forces are also doing fine.



Big business is being saved with the 'quantitative easing" money. Small business is left to their own devices.



I hope things look differently elsewhere though.



barnakiel

Hi Barnakiel, I dont think it is different else where, small business is the real collateral economic damage being done, and it's easy to underestimate the reality of this.

In Australia small businesses are the biggest employers, not government.

Just last night I had a pizza at a little resort here in Fiji, zero guests. The owners been building it for 18 years, his exact words were "it looks like I'm going to lose it, I'm not sure what I'll do"....this is tragic. Meanwhile big business has returned to buying their own stock back.

It makes me angry when someone like a previous poster says "they should of prepared!!!....for a pandemic, really???

[Cheechako]

The problem is not enough hard line steps taken early. Here's facts; places like S. Korea, Japan etc took hard line steps and now they have 0 to a couple hundred cases of covid. The US coddled all the "non believers", didn't rigidly shut down and we have an average of 50,000+ cases.
It's obvious what went wrong.
So the result is, the US is having a long term shut down and problem that could have been managed and stopped like others did. The more people don't comply, the longer it will go until a vaccine gets to a majority of people a year or more than now.
Wearing a mask became "political".
It's like saying wearing a life jacket is a political statement.

[barnakiel]

Off course. The govts do not need our tax fiat money anymore. In the new normal you simply "ease" (= add zeroes to existing balances).



;-) but only half a ;-) the other half of me is sad because I have always admired people who are trying to do something, build something, achieve something.


b.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Off course. The govts do not need our tax fiat money anymore. In the new normal you simply "ease" (= add zeroes to existing balances).



;-) but only half a ;-) the other half of me is sad because I have always admired people who are trying to do something, build something, achieve something.


b.

That's why I said "the world needs people like Chris" in the original link. People that try, take a risk, except the responsibility, provide jobs, create, ....adding zeros isnt a long term solution , it's like hand feeding wild animals, it creates uselessness.

[Island Time O25]

Not to go wild on conspiracy tangent but after 6 months of this BS gov't induced circus it's beginning to feel like someone very smart is using the virus to kill the middle class and small businesses.

I don't care what they state their official intentions are I just see the results of their policies rammed down our throats without any democratic input or even a pretended consultation.

Even our PCP does not have the right to do to us what the gov'ts are doing under the guise of "containing the spread". While doing absolutely nothing containing the underlying morbidities, etc.

While we are forced to quarantine, wear masks, socially distance, etc. not one policy outlawed fattening and high sugar foods or any other products contributing to the covid death rate. Talk about dealing with underlying issues before dealing with superficial ones.