U.S. to close..

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

Great info Gord. Thanks for posting.

3 out of the 31 person sample size were actually dead and voted.

ETA: The above was after a quick scan of the article. It gets better.

A must read.

It is a good read. But I don't think it established that 3 actually dead people voted. I believe they're all accounted for here:

For one woman who was supposed to have died in 2006 we found an annual company statement signed under her name from January 2020.

Two other men on our list of 31 died some time ago, yet votes had been cast in their names - with the correct postcodes and years of birth - according to the voting database.

We found that for both men, there were sons with the same name currently registered at the same address as their deceased fathers.

In both cases, a ballot was sent in for the dead fathers.

Local election officials told us that one of the votes had been counted but there was no record of the son having voted.

In the other, it was the son who actually voted, but it had been recorded as the father's due to a clerical error.

... so that's 0 proven, or even likely, fraudulent votes out of a random sample of 31.

The article makes plain the data-association errors rampant in the sample, that likely extend to the whole list in the same proportions. Whoever assembled the list has apparently made some amateurish or deliberate errors. In no way does this list prove that there were 10,000 fraudulent votes cast.

This is more evidence that fraud about election fraud remains a far greater threat to the election than actual election fraud.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

So-called redistribution simply recognizes that wealth is created by a community, not solely by an individual. And therefore the wealth generated is rightly owed to both the community and the individual.

Everyone, even the most right-wing countries, accept this principle. Otherwise there would be ZERO public goods such as roads, fire departments and the military (which is a huge public good). The only debate is on the right balance between the two extremes.

I'm (mostly) a capitalist. I like the freedom of choosing my career path, to be able to seek my fortune, or to simply follow my interest. And the communists aren't yet handing out sailboats.

Where I differ from some is that I believe that capitalism must serve society, and not the other way around. Capitalism needs fences and guardrails when its trajectory differs from the best interests of society. I also believe that capitalism has to keep its promises. If a rising tide floats all boats, then we better see all the boats floating, not one fleet of shiny yachts in deep water while most of the small boats are still stranded in the shallows.

I read a great article (source forgotten) whose thesis was that in the post WW II cold war, which was essentially communism vs capitalism, our capitalist societies made deliberate efforts to ensure that the working class was secure and happy, to blunt the appeal of communism to the masses. When the Cold War was "won" in 1989 with the disintegration of the USSR and the fall of the Berlin wall, there was no more need to make that concession, and you can pretty much see the new trajectory from that point: unions busted, less taxation on wealth and big earners, less job security for workers, less regulation on banks and the financial sector. It all leads up to now - the gig economy, fewer decent-paying jobs let alone "careers", too many living paycheck to paycheck, too much personal debt. Not a great fortress for fighting a pandemic from.

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Indeed. As I mentioned, resilient communities can accommodate a certain number of these free-riders. But in times of stress, it gets harder to do so.

So-called redistribution simply recognizes that wealth is created by a community, not solely by an individual. And therefore the wealth generated is rightly owed to both the community and the individual.

Everyone, even the most right-wing countries, accept this principle. Otherwise there would be ZERO public goods such as roads, fire departments and the military (which is a huge public good). The only debate is on the right balance between the two extremes.

Everyone is a socialist (except those living alone on desert islands). It's just a question of degree.

Know anyone with a nice Amel I can “redistribute” lol

Roads? Yeah I pay for that with my fuel taxes, and based on the condition of the roads to the taxes, I’m getting ripped off.

My FD is volunteer, and also a small fraction of the insane amount of money the gov takes from my labor. Heck when the gov takes more of the fruits of your labors than you are allowed to keep, does that make you a slave?

Military should just be a small yearly amount everyone pays, if that can’t pay that it’s X percent based on what they make compared to the average person, I’d also majorly cut our military to a strictly defensive and special forces and space based situation, more F22s, more subs, have a decent sized special forces group etc. but the mass majority of the army has become job that “it’s better than Walmart”.

My wealth, you didn’t make it.

Why are some people sooo obsessed with other people’s stuff, like if folks spent half the time they do obsessing about others and invested it in bettering their own situation they would be much happier. Ofcourse you also have a power hungry nutters, but not much you can legally do about them.

[OurOasis]

" Was the election stolen, let’s see what the courts say, the media doesn’t elect a president, whatever they say I’ll go with.

But to say there were no shenanigans, please.[/QUOTE] "


It's NOT the media or the courts that elect the president, it's the V O T E R S !!

And they have spoken.

US election officials: 'No evidence' of voter fraud

Get over it.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I'm (mostly) a capitalist. I like the freedom of choosing my career path, to be able to seek my fortune, or to simply follow my interest. And the communists aren't yet handing out sailboats.

Although we've intertwined these two mythologies of "freedom" and "capitalism", the two really are quite separate. Freedom is a physical and mental state. Capitalism is merely a way to manage community wealth. You can be "free" in a non-capitalist state, just as you can be a slave under capitalism.

Whether capitalism lends itself to a more free society is an interesting debate. Easy to see both sides of that discussion. But it is arguably better than all the rest.

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Where I differ from some is that I believe that capitalism must serve society, and not the other way around. Capitalism needs fences and guardrails when its trajectory differs from the best interests of society.

In reality, there is no pure capitalist society, just as there is no pure democracy. All functioning capitalist societies place strong guardrails and protections around their systems. One needs tremendous government intervention to support legal systems that safeguard transactions, or organize monetary policy, for example.

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I read a great article (source forgotten) whose thesis was that in the post WW II cold war, which was essentially communism vs capitalism, our capitalist societies made deliberate efforts to ensure that the working class was secure and happy, to blunt the appeal of communism to the masses. When the Cold War was "won" in 1989 with the disintegration of the USSR and the fall of the Berlin wall, there was no more need to make that concession, and you can pretty much see the new trajectory from that point: unions busted, less taxation on wealth and big earners, less job security for workers, less regulation on banks and the financial sector. It all leads up to now - the gig economy, fewer decent-paying jobs let alone "careers", too many living paycheck to paycheck, too much personal debt. Not a great fortress for fighting a pandemic from.

Agreed, although the date of separation when all boats stopped rising can easily be traced back to mid 1970s. Prior to this productivity gains were shared between all contributors. It's why the wealth distribution between different brackets has shifted so dramatically to the top.

https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

... the date of separation when all boats stopped rising can easily be traced back to mid 1970s. Prior to this productivity gains were shared between all contributors. It's why the wealth distribution between different brackets has shifted so dramatically to the top.
https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

That's true. Maybe the writing was already on the wall, in the upper echelons, re the imminent winning of the Cold War. Or maybe they decided that bearing down on the workforce was an easy productivity win.

[Jason Flare]

The unfortunate “Millionaire Next Door,” scrimping saving driving an old car and people want for free the efforts of his labor.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

It is a good read. But I don't think it established that 3 actually dead people voted.

Admittedly dead people can’t vote.

I ask that people read the article.

In this article voter fraud exists. The degree of voter fraud can be debated.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Roads? Yeah I pay for that with my fuel taxes, and based on the condition of the roads to the taxes, I’m getting ripped off.

Use taxes (fuel taxes etc) don't come close to paying 100% of the cost of building and maintaining roads and highways.

Infrastructure neglect - a different topic. Btw, getting busy with these much neglected infrastructure projects should be a no-brainer for getting people back to work after this pandemic mess. You'd have at least something to show for all the govt money put out.

... when the gov takes more of the fruits of your labors than you are allowed to keep, does that make you a slave?

If you still have more fruit in your larder than you can ever use... does it matter all that much?

My wealth, you didn’t make it.

People have already listed many of the benefits we all get from living in an organized, lawful society. Perhaps the one you're most overlooking is that you're supported by a structure that makes it easier and safer for you to generate wealth in. An educated and healthy* workforce. The infrastructure that brings your workers and supplies into your place of business, and takes your output away to your distributers and customers. The laws and courts that make it harder to rip each other off. A big market of people with enough discretionary income to choose your offering (... or a captive rentier/monopoly situation where they have no choice, but let's not go there).

Without all this... where's the market for your business? How much would you have to expend for the missing security and logistics? Basically, your concepts of freedom and opting out just leads to feudalism. A few will have the brains, ambition and ruthlessness to get to the top, and the rest are just vassals subject to their dictates. Are you so confident that you'd be a lord in this system of yours?

*societies with universal single-payer healthcare have more mobile, dynamic and HEALTHY workforces. Nobody's locked into useless or awful jobs for fear of losing healthcare benefits.

... like if folks spent half the time they do obsessing about others and invested it in bettering their own situation they would be much happier.

... it's debatable whether this is truly the case for everyone. It's much harder to go from nothing to wealth these days. And let's face it - Galt's Gulch is a bigger fantasy than Marxism. If everyone is an entrepreneurial genius and no-one's a dull but content worker, you'd have a short-lived nation of starving geniuses. Not everyone wants to be an entrepreneur. Many would be content to go put in their 8 hours at a job, then spend the rest of the time with their families, friends and their little hobbies. Society needs these people. Why shouldn't they be able to live that life? There's more than enough wealth around to reward the risk-takers handsomely AND pay the plebes decently. And support those unable to work, cos they buy stuff too.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

Admittedly dead people can’t vote.

I ask that people read the article.

In this article voter fraud exists. The degree of voter fraud can be debated.

People absolutely should read the article. But as I pointed out, the article doesn't identify any fraud. I won't claim that none of the 10,000 names on that list represents an actual fraudulent vote, but even if the 3 out of 31 votes were actually fraudulent (and we already know that they weren't ), that still just scales out to about 1000 fraudulent votes.. AND if all these fraudulent votes were for Biden... it still wouldn't change the results in MI.

None of Trump's crack legal teams, nor the DOJ, nor the FEC, have found a shred of proof of voter fraud, and the courts have laughed them out of the room repeatedly. If these motivated experts still can't show fraud, you and I aren't going to be able to find any. Retain a scrap of dignity, recognize the integrity of the US electoral system and the validity of its results, and let it go, folks.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

None of Trump's crack legal teams, nor the DOJ, nor the FEC, have found a shred of proof of voter fraud, and the courts have laughed them out of the courtrooms repeatedly. If they still can't show fraud, you and aren't going to be able to find any. Retain a scrap of dignity, recognize the integrity of the US electoral system, and let it go, folks.

And on that note......

http://www.loser.com/

[El Pinguino]

Do our resident anti-vaxxers realise they won't be going anywhere for quite some time?

https://www.theage.com.au/national/n...23-p56h8j.html

Now this is just the Qantas CEO speaking but why ... in the medium term future... would this requirement not be put in place by national authorities around the world?
No difference between the need for smallpox in the olden days and yellow fever - for many countries - these days.

But but they can't do that!!!!! Oh yes they can.......

And also.... what was the weird ear thing up thread? Wasn't just a different ear lobe... was a different head....

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Guess you couldn't be bothered to even read the abstract.

No, I did look it over but it was clearly written to support a pre-determined answer as opposed to an honest review.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

...But as I pointed out, the article doesn't identify any fraud...

Over 160,000,000 votes were cast for a job with the most power to allocate wealth in the world. Of course elements from both sides succeeded in fraud, just like every other election since forever. So always a matter of degrees. Always fringe folks will make tempests in teapots, mountains of molehills, observation bias themselves to sleep like the rest of us. At least acknowledge their molehill.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Do our resident anti-vaxxers realise they won't be going anywhere for quite some time?

https://www.theage.com.au/national/n...23-p56h8j.html

Now this is just the Qantas CEO speaking but why ... in the medium term future... would this requirement not be put in place by national authorities around the world?

Agreed. Completely sensible. I expect the same will be extended within our nations as well. Currently there are a growing number of school boards which will not allow students to come to school if they have not been adequately vaccinated. And some work places do the same.

Same is happening with mask wearing in many places (typically places that have been able to better control of the virus). No mask, no service.

This works great. People have the freedom not to wear a mask, or to vaccinate, and the rest of society has the freedom not to be exposed to these people. It's a form of exclusion, or banishment, and it's a standard way communities have always dealt with free riders.