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Old 23-11-2020, 14:14   #886
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Re: U.S. too close..

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One Australian - Murdoch and Newscorpse, FOX and SKY
Isn't old fella Murdoch a Yank citizen now?
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:15   #887
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Re: U.S. too close..

Anyone interested in US income & wealth distribution should read:
“A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality” ~ by Chad Stone, Danilo Trisi, Arloc Sherman, Jennifer Beltrán (Center on Budget and Policy Priorities)
On-line ➥ https://www.cbpp.org/research/povert...equality#_ftn5
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:18   #888
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Re: U.S. too close..

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Families separated for five months? Love ones? Are you kidding? That is huge damage, and if large numbers of people are affected, there will be deaths, too.
Utter nonsense... people have coped with separation far worse than that for years.... for a multitude of reasons.

War - no going 'home' to the family 5 years during WW2 - jobs in foreign parts during the days of empire with home leave only every few years, I grew up in a world where ship's articles were for two years... unless you worked out of Hong Kong where it was four....

In my current case.... half a family in Melbourne that I haven't seen since June... the other half in Canberra... ditto..... don't see any undue stress amongst any of us.... and the Melbourne crew wont be coming up to visit for a few months yet due to severe hay fever issues

More stressful not seeing my boat ... or the ocean... for 12 months.......

Maybe Australians cope better than some because we are not a nation of softc*cks....

Yes I know.... the Dirty Digger aka Murdoch can always trot out some sob stories....
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:19   #889
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Re: U.S. too close..

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In reality, there is no pure capitalist society, just as there is no pure democracy. All functioning capitalist societies place strong guardrails and protections around their systems. One needs tremendous government intervention to support legal systems that safeguard transactions, or organize monetary policy, for example.

Agreed, although the date of separation when all boats stopped rising can easily be traced back to mid 1970s. Prior to this productivity gains were shared between all contributors. It's why the wealth distribution between different brackets has shifted so dramatically to the top.

https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/
Yes, Capitalism needs rules. Of course, there is a difference between what we could call "unfettered" capitalism and capitalism. Capitalism is just a level playing field and let the best man win. "unfettered" capitalism is once someone gets ahead, they use the advantages to end capitalism. The traditional approach is through monopolies. Reality we will never have true capitalism (nor has there ever been true socialism/communism).

As far as the nice graph from the 1970's, that is more likely a relic of WWII. The US, Europe and Japan (with Canada and Australia secondarily) were by far the centers of industrial power. WWII destroyed Europe and Japan's industrial base and drastically reduced the working age male population (just being honest...at the time men were the bread winners). So with the massive rebuilding and limited work force, capitalist pressures, drove up wages. It was simple supply and demand for workers.

By the 1970's Europe and Japan were back on line for industry and the babyboomers were entering the work force in large numbers. Supply and demand shifted the opposite way.

This was reinforced by other areas of the world developing industrial bases when the west was too slow to adapt to the new reality of labor supply and demand.

Talking about income inequality is traditional class warfare that has pretty much nothing to do with the situation. Just like those who railed against factory jobs going overseas, while not budging an inch on high wages, there is a logical outcome to sticking it to the rich for no reason other than they've done well...they simply move their wealth overseas where it helps out a different country.

PS: This brings up a good point about how destroying businesses today...they don't just instantaneously reappear when you remove the pressure. Europe and Japan took decades to recover commercially.
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:21   #890
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Re: U.S. too close..

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Isn't old fella Murdoch a Yank citizen now?
Yes... he had to do that so he could own US media... all part of his plan to control the thought processes of 330 million people.... he has about 70 mill so far....
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:23   #891
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Re: U.S. too close..

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Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
One Australian - Murdoch and Newscorpse, FOX and SKY
You didn't answer the question.
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:23   #892
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Re: U.S. too close..

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
- Asking for ID isn't "suppression"?
- Polling stations were not eliminated.
- Lines should have been shorter since a large percentage voted early (of course in presidential elections, particularly hotly contested ones, there are always long lines).
- Challenges in close races are common...sure Trump is going a bit over the top but it's really just a side show an no one is taking it seriously.
Show me there's a need and I'd back your calls for better voter ID. If there's no need (existing ID measures are sufficient, and no fraud) then it's just screwing with things.

If polls have long lines and significant waits, you have too few polling stations. Another form of suppression. And how about crippling the USPS office prior to the election, and turning handsprings to block the acceptance of late-arriving ballots even if postmarked in time?

This plus the post-election fraud claims all stink to high heaven. Moreover, it has come very close to working; look how many people are buying the utterly Trumpian BS that there was election fraud?
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:32   #893
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Re: U.S. too close..

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Exactly.

It is interesting the 'voter fraud folk' are only looking at certain states. If they were seriously interested in detecting fraud, they would be looking at all states.
Of course, it's not in ALL states. In states where political power is relatively balanced, it's too easy for the other side to launch a legitimate investigation. In those states there is a strong check on fraud simply because it's likely to be uncovered and would hurt their future election hopes.

It's in the states that are heavily dominated by one party where they can shut down any investigation. With no evidence, you can even have academic studies that support that there is no fraud because there is no evidence (we'll just have to ignore the fact that there's no evidence since the party in power didn't investigate).

This results in the rare cases of "confirmed" fraud, it's most often a looney or lone wolf type scenario and small scale. Again, this is used to support the idea that there is no systemic fraud.
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:39   #894
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Re: U.S. too close..

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Originally Posted by OurOasis View Post
" Was the election stolen, let’s see what the courts say, the media doesn’t elect a president, whatever they say I’ll go with.

But to say there were no shenanigans, please.
"


It's NOT the media or the courts that elect the president, it's the V O T E R S !!

And they have spoken.

US election officials: 'No evidence' of voter fraud

Get over it.[/QUOTE]

It hasn’t even finished up at the courts, and even little ol’ me posted some very obvious BS, unless you think all those 120+ yr olds with the exact same birthday moved to the same state and all voted.

There was BS, it’s just a matter of if it was enough
to have changed anything, the point of these court issues is to make sure the will of the people is actually heard, that’s is the process, we will know by Dec 8.
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:42   #895
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Re: U.S. too close..

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Do our resident anti-vaxxers realise they won't be going anywhere for quite some time?

https://www.theage.com.au/national/n...23-p56h8j.html

Now this is just the Qantas CEO speaking but why ... in the medium term future... would this requirement not be put in place by national authorities around the world?
No difference between the need for smallpox in the olden days and yellow fever - for many countries - these days.

But but they can't do that!!!!! Oh yes they can.......
Reality is most of the true hard core anti-vaxers don't do much travel anyway, in particular international travel. So it's like threatening your kid who hates brussel sprouts that you won't make brussel sprouts for dinner if he doesn't clean his room. He'll use it to rail about what a mean parent you are while happy not to have to eat brussel sprouts.

Then again, anti-vaxers is being distorted and used to vilify people.
- Given the percentage of school age kids who have their vaccines, the true hard core anti-vaxers are a tiny percentage of the population. Once we hit 70-90% vaccination rates, it's not going to matter if there are a few holdouts.
- Many people will likely wait a few months for the Corona vaccines to see if serious side effects crop up when it goes into widespread use. Given how fast the development has gone, that's not an unreasonable approach. I expect by the time we hit 50% market penetration with vaccines, it will be 6 months down the road and most of this group will get over their concerns if nothing bad crops up.

In large part, I think the anti-vax storyline is the media trying to get both sides riled up.
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:50   #896
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Re: U.S. too close..

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
[Election fraud] is in the states that are heavily dominated by one party where they can shut down any investigation.
... or pretend that there's fraud that must be investigated, despite a complete lack of evidence.
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:58   #897
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Re: U.S. too close..

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Originally Posted by SalingSue View Post
.............

It hasn’t even finished up at the courts, and even little ol’ me posted some very obvious BS, unless you think all those 120+ yr olds with the exact same birthday moved to the same state and all voted.

There was BS, it’s just a matter of if it was enough
to have changed anything, the point of these court issues is to make sure the will of the people is actually heard, that’s is the process, we will know by Dec 8.
If you really want to know what the will of the people is, you don't have to wait to Dec 8. The people have spoken and the numbers are definitive - 79M for one guy and 73M for the other guy.

However hang around 'til Dec 8 for the weird EC to do their stuff.
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:59   #898
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Re: U.S. too close..

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
Show me there's a need and I'd back your calls for better voter ID. If there's no need (existing ID measures are sufficient, and no fraud) then it's just screwing with things.

If polls have long lines and significant waits, you have too few polling stations. Another form of suppression. And how about crippling the USPS office prior to the election, and turning handsprings to block the acceptance of late-arriving ballots even if postmarked in time?

This plus the post-election fraud claims all stink to high heaven. Moreover, it has come very close to working; look how many people are buying the utterly Trumpian BS that there was election fraud?
We don't need "better" ID. Again, people already have picture ID. You simply can't function in modern society without it...and trotting out some 110yr old grandma from the backwoods who's never voted or cared to vote until a journalist went searching for her doesn't change that (offers have been made to offer free picture ID to these rare individuals anyway). No one is screwing with things...just pull out the ID you already have on you so it can be checked against the voter rolls. This isn't hard or suppression. It's simple logic.

There were issues this year as people got silly. If you mailed your ballot after election day, that's on you. The number of mail in ballots wasn't a surprise. Nor was the overloading of the post office. If there is any good from this, we might implement electronic voting rather than the silly process we use now.

Long lines have been around pretty much since the start of the country for Presidential elections. If you are in line before the poll closes, you get to vote. It doesn't make sense to spend huge amounts on a single day event that only happens once every 4 years when it hasn't been proven to effect the outcome (that was your standard for refusing to even consider ID rules).

Sure the post election claims are silly now (within 2-3 days of the election, it was standard fare for close elections). It's funny how partisans (even if they aren't from the country), see fraud when the other side does something (not sure how sending it to the courts to confirm is fraud but hey...) but not when their own side does it. No one "almost" stole the election. It was a close election and it's sorted itself out.
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Old 23-11-2020, 15:02   #899
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Re: U.S. too close..

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Yes, Capitalism needs rules. Of course, there is a difference between what we could call "unfettered" capitalism and capitalism. Capitalism is just a level playing field and let the best man win. "unfettered" capitalism is once someone gets ahead, they use the advantages to end capitalism. The traditional approach is through monopolies. Reality we will never have true capitalism (nor has there ever been true socialism/communism).

As far as the nice graph from the 1970's, that is more likely a relic of WWII. The US, Europe and Japan (with Canada and Australia secondarily) were by far the centers of industrial power. WWII destroyed Europe and Japan's industrial base and drastically reduced the working age male population (just being honest...at the time men were the bread winners). So with the massive rebuilding and limited work force, capitalist pressures, drove up wages. It was simple supply and demand for workers.

By the 1970's Europe and Japan were back on line for industry and the babyboomers were entering the work force in large numbers. Supply and demand shifted the opposite way.

This was reinforced by other areas of the world developing industrial bases when the west was too slow to adapt to the new reality of labor supply and demand.

Talking about income inequality is traditional class warfare that has pretty much nothing to do with the situation. Just like those who railed against factory jobs going overseas, while not budging an inch on high wages, there is a logical outcome to sticking it to the rich for no reason other than they've done well...they simply move their wealth overseas where it helps out a different country.

PS: This brings up a good point about how destroying businesses today...they don't just instantaneously reappear when you remove the pressure. Europe and Japan took decades to recover commercially.
Very excellent post, except for the bolded part, which is delusional. We've got the historical bad omen/harbinger zealots from both sides in the streets crying for different, go back to the [above referenced golden economic past while schizophrenically declaring the economy is better than ever]*; the other (zealot) half effectively saying the socioeconomic water is boiling with too many victims (which unless completely heartless is at least largely true).

That the uber-wealthy can (figuratively speaking) make money building F-35s, live on estates on US soil, take dollars form the US mint, have minions provide a national and local defense, pay historically scant taxes, then just leave the US at will.....all that is practically a new phenomenon in the history of the world (save very rare exceptions).

The same supply-demand factors you referenced are creating the world-is-flat global economy, where frankly the US economy...on the fringe...is getting squeezed hard to maintain any resemblance of growth, which soon enough is going to completely stagnate. Insofar as a too-high % of small businesses have 2w-2m cash reserves....disproportionately service sector....this is like having an economy dependent on the health of flimsy hotdog stands.

*The economy-is-flat, not going back to the golden days is a fact of life. There's a too-high % of Americans willing to follow whatever knucklehead stands up promising easily solutions to "get us back there." In modern history, both Italy and Germany...in the post WW1 and perhaps more importantly post-industrialization era (which reduces the # of people needed to work, making unemployed) this whole recipe is a very, very bad deal...I suggest, for the US. That the uber-wealthy can just fly the coop when stuff hits the fan I submit is very problematic, and frankly speaking they're they only ones holding doubloons that might avert tragedy.

England more or less taxed the historical estates out of existence ?100 years ago out of economic necessity. How ironic that those in a country (US) born out of a desire to escape rich overlords now have rationalized how necessary they are, how they are to be protected, that broaching a discussion of even US-normative taxation on the uber-wealthy is "class warfare." This is something a PR person or accountant for an uber-wealthy person would say.
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Old 23-11-2020, 15:07   #900
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Re: U.S. too close..

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A cure is never worse than the disease--pure nonsense word games.
Actually, it often is the case. Particularly with modern medicine. The medical field gets so excited about a cure, they don't look at the full picture.

Cancer is a common scenario. The treatments often make life a living hell. In some cases, they may even accelerate death if the cure is unsuccessful but in some cases it does effect a cure for the cancer...at least for a little while...before the next round of treatments.

In many cases, eventually the patient decides the cure is worse than the disease. They aren't playing word games. It's reality. Only in recent years has the medical community come to the realization that the option to forego the "cure" may be better for the patient depending on the specifics.

Much more difficult to analyses is the current Corona situation. We don't know how effective many of these responses (aka: cures) are and we don't know the exact amount of collateral damage the "cures" cause. So to simply apply the "cure" with no consideration of the damage it does is stupidity.
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