Lithium and Insurance

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Insurance is a contract. If you honestly answer every question asked and they write a contract that is silent on a specific item, they can't later contractually exclude it. So if you can read and have your policy, you know exactly what is covered and what isn't. If you volunteer information then at best you'll be in exactly the same position as before, but they can also take that as a prompt to add something that is not to your benefit. Why incur that risk when you can simply read your own policy? Not to mention that what an agent tells you in the phone isn't legally binding and many are shockingly ignorant of their own field.

Precisely, as someone who did insurance investigation I found it very common that the folks insured had never read their policy or did not understand what they had read.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Precisely, as someone who did insurance investigation I found it very common that the folks insured had never read their policy or did not understand what they had read.

The vast majority of insurance contracts have clause that require you to disclose material changes to the insurance object or changes in your own circumstances

Not disclosing you figured a lithium battery falls squarely into that category. Insurance is not a product you conceal things as the only person being fooled is you . Hence I suggest you build a relationship with your insurers and discuss any proposed battery solution long before you begin.

[Melbourne Park]

My friend just bought a motor boat, about three years old. For fishing - he's gong to put it in a house he owns in tropical Queensland, for reef fishing.

He insured via the web, and said that insurers only want to know if one's boat is currently insured, and hence, will accept insuring your boat based on its current insurance contract.

I spoke to him about my lithium and insurance concerns - and he explained what to do. When I queried him about reading the policy - he was indignant, and said "lawyers do read insurance policies and yes I did read the policy". He's a "Queens Council", an eminent "senior" commercial barrister. He also said that the company he chose did not require frequent audits on the boat, which another company insisted on.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Precisely, as someone who did insurance investigation I found it very common that the folks insured had never read their policy or did not understand what they had read.

not even a laywer can fully understand what is insured today.there are so many rubber paragraphs which in the end are up to a judge to define in each individual case.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

not even a laywer can fully understand what is insured today.there are so many rubber paragraphs which in the end are up to a judge to define in each individual case.

While true, lawyers get opinions on what Queen's Councils provide. And so do judges. After all, Australian - and British barristers, have two overall functions - opinions, and court cases.

[BuoyCall]

Originally Posted by Montanan

On topic blog link:

https://sailingrenegade.com/and-now-...cht-insurance/

AND NOW A WORD ABOUT YACHT INSURANCE
written by Admin November 21, 2021

Snipet:

Carriers look at several things before endorsing coverage:

Cruising plans (geographic area and month in each area)

Previous claims history

Crew experience

Recent boat survey with no open exceptions (very important)

Mast material – We have a carbon fiber mast. True story – we have a friend with a Farr 30 that damaged his carbon fiber mast during overland transport. The insurance company totaled the boat rather than pay a claim to replace the mast.

Standing rigging age

House battery type – The go to carrier for US flagged world cruisers is Markel. They have a policy called the Jackline program that is a perfect fit for us. The problem is they do not accept boats with lithium house batteries, no doubt because some do it yourself swap outs have gone bad. We are hearing they may soon accept Lithium Iron Phosphate installations completed by American Boat & Yacht Council (ABYC) certified technicians.

Layup time (time in a yard)

This year our current carrier decided to leave the market and not endorse Caribbean sailing for existing policies. However, the Bahamas are an allowed sailing area until policy expiration in April 2022. I shopped other US carriers for full Caribbean coverage and saw close to an 80% premium increase. These US policies also had minimum crew requirements, high deductibles, maximum distance offshore, and other undesirable policy terms. I then started researching UK based insurance and found great coverage with very reasonable premiums. You can get UK insurance for a US flagged vessel when it is out of the US. The problem is you are not covered by the US legal system if you ever have a claim and it is denied, which is a concern.

So here is our plan:

See how the carriers change their terms and premiums in the new calendar year since claims were most likely lighter than forecast
Wait out Markel insurance on their decision to insure yachts with ABYC installed lithium batteries.
If the two above do not materialize, revisit UK based policies



Or just don't use lithium batteries.

Well said!!!

[Melbourne Park]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

not even a laywer can fully understand what is insured today.there are so many rubber paragraphs which in the end are up to a judge to define in each individual case.

And in my country and State, I cannot put a boat into a marina without showing the insurance policy to the yacht club. So insurance here in Australia/Victoria/Melbourne is close to mandatory.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by Melbourne Park

While true, lawyers get opinions on what Queen's Councils provide. And so do judges. After all, Australian - and British barristers, have two overall functions - opinions, and court cases.

I can assure you, from personal observation that the executive classes in the insurance industry have just as strong an aversion to lawyers as the lay population. A commonly expressed opinion therein is "when the lawyers walk in the door, reason flees via the window".

There's no great mystery about what an insurance policy is, it's agreement between yourself and another party for that party to assume some of the risk of an endeavor in return for a monetary fee.

You read and understand it like any other commercial agreement and of you don't understand it a broker should be able to explain it.

Brokers can be your best friend.

Quiet often the problem is not with the insurance company but with the experts used by the insurance company to assess the loss.

Assessors are usually locally based and hired by the loss department of the insurer to identify the circumstances of the loss and how they relate to the policy. There are times when they are a tad too enthusiastic in interpreting thing to far towards the benefit of the insurer.

Now, brokers tend to associate with the sales and marketing departments of the insurers and this groups claim to fame is how much insurance they can sell A good broker will work this relationship to his clients benefit.

[goboatingnow]

I do not believe the statement that you can get U.K. insurance for a US flagged vessel under US ownership . Certainly Pantaenius U.K. confirmed they do not insure US vessels currently.

My view is to engage with your insurers if planning an install. As a EE professional they accepted my professional qualifications. However their current position is a 50 % payout if the damage is directly associated with a lithium fire.

Hence you take your risks.

[T1 Terry]

As far as motorhomes and caravans as well as house boats, there are no issues as long as the installer can be identified and has insurance that covers any problems caused by the batteries etc. That's way in front of the same vehicles with lead acid batteries, anyone can install those and there is no installer to chase if there is a problem. Lots of lead acid battery fires in boats, caravans and motorhomes, generally the charger loses the plot and over charged the battery resulting in lots of gassing until the battery finally pops its top creating a spark ....

T1 Terry

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

As far as motorhomes and caravans as well as house boats, there are no issues as long as the installer can be identified and has insurance that covers any problems caused by the batteries etc. That's way in front of the same vehicles with lead acid batteries, anyone can install those and there is no installer to chase if there is a problem. Lots of lead acid battery fires in boats, caravans and motorhomes, generally the charger loses the plot and over charged the battery resulting in lots of gassing until the battery finally pops its top creating a spark ....

T1 Terry

What may apply in some countries may not apply in others. In the EU there are similar rules applying to camper vans , Caravans etc. just like boats and in certain cases certification is required.

Whatever you are doing , you need to engage with your insurers. Tell them honestly what you propose , get their professional response and or limits of cover. The worst type of insurance is one where you are fooling yourself thinking you are covered, when you are not. Don’t mislead your insurers.

For those with RCD compliant boats , completely modifying the boats electrical system is a “ major craft modification “. Be aware this was both legal implications on any commercial installer and this has potential knock on issues for any insurers.

My advice is engage with your insurers , tell them truthfully what you propose and get their reaction. You can then decide how to proceed knowingly the situation

Imagine the recent fire in Gouvia where 6 boats burned was caused by a lithium fire and you discovered you weren’t insured. Not nice

[RaymondR]

Another big user of these batteries is aircraft. Does anyone know what aircraft manufacturers have done to solve the problem?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Another big user of these batteries is aircraft. Does anyone know what aircraft manufacturers have done to solve the problem?

Both airbus and Boeing are back flying with Lithium in one form of another.

But then aircraft are entirely different.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Both airbus and Boeing are back flying with Lithium in one form of another.

But then aircraft are entirely different.

There have been a couple of fires on aircraft and what I was curious about was what precautions, such as sealing them in metal boxes with vents, they might have taken.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

There have been a couple of fires on aircraft and what I was curious about was what precautions, such as sealing them in metal boxes with vents, they might have taken.

There’s a few online articles that mention some measures including enhanced monitoring and improved maintenance and manual monitoring. The details are scant however