Lithium and Insurance

[Melbourne Park]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

...
No problem with my surveyor and Pantaenius all insured.
Sure if you cannot provide proper wiring diagram to your surveyor upfront so he can prepare, that disqualifies you already any proper install needs one doesn't matter if DIY or professional
...

I spoke to Pantaenius and they said all their covers have the 50% only if damage is caused by Lithium batteries. Whatever that means - but check your policy for any revisions or clauses. Such policies are annual.

Pantaenius said to me that Lithium has caused some fires - and I know of one minor issue, from a Lithium manufacturer in Australia (or should I say assembler who designed a BMS for Lithium). There were two batteries in a motor boat steering console, that was exposed to direct Queensland (tropical) sunshine. One of their Lithium batteries "exploded". Due to overheating inside the console. Another smaller battery did not. The only damage was to the inside of the console, everything appeared normal on the outside, but the boat had no power.

The premium quality Lithium "manufacturer" changed the design of the Lithium battery - they provided more expansion space for the cells. They don't use pouch lithiums, they use prismatic, so despite their metal casings, they can expand a lot.

Pantaenius said its early days - they said in the future, their policy may change. And we should not forget that such companies are brokers for the actual insurers.

It's not helped either by the plethoria of brands and the lack of information about how they are constructed.

And then there are the experts, such as mine who basically stick by the big brands. And hence one pays a lot. And my "experts" said that they only will be involved in metal boxed units with prismatic cells. Yet some makers specify plastic cases for marine, due to plastic not rusting rust like a knocked metal casing will. And a marine battery should also be sealed, via a typical glue or a gasket if it's lid is bolted down. And then there is the quality of the BMS, and how big its heat exchange is. And then, how well the cells are protected from vibration and each other (prismatics seem to be stacked together with no space between them which must not aid cooling), so another issue then is how well the cells are spaced for cooling. It seems to me the move to prismatic is a construction saving issue - joining many "cellular" style Lithium batteries together (which look like "D" type torch batteries) must add a lot to cost due to the extra wiring). And then how good is the wiring. And whether the thermocouples are there for temperature controls for the BMS. Many lithiums have a low capability to provide current, and some cannot be put in series, or may be able to series into 24 volts but not 48, and the number in series may be restricted. And some lithiums are not even able to be paralleled, or also have a limitation on how many can be put into parallel.

And no doubt there are major differences in quality, from companies we only know by the brand that the OEM manufacturer stamped on the battery. And the price may be decided by the cost accountants and the companies own insurance policies concerning selling a problem battery.

So is it any wonder with so many companies out there, that insurers have no standard to apply to even a safe battery, let alone whether its appropriately setup?

Its no wonder the boat guy experts say - "the only benefit of Lithium is weight". Its easier for them if the boat was fitted for lead acid, that they sell replacement ones and they'll see you in a number of years as typically IMO lead acid batteries must suffer in the boat environment if the boat is used a lot.

[Anders]

I can't find any mention of lithium in the product disclosure statement from Pantaenius Australia.

[SaylorMade]

Originally Posted by Melbourne Park

Pantaenius said to me that Lithium has caused some fires.

Oh really, well yeah, then we can't have coverage, if there has been fires.
I mean if we could get money back, if the boat burns, the poor insurance companies would be less profitable.

This is just hillarious, and I am amazed that anyone will accept, that they will essentially only get 50 percent in case of fire, because that blanket statement, will get the insurance company out of jail for free, every time.
Every boat has many many lithium batteries on board (even if the main battery bank is not), and I am sure that they will find one that "caused" the fire.

I wonder if caravans burn down to the tires on a regular basis, because those folks use A LOT of cheap LifePo4 batteries from China.

[SaylorMade]

I just did a search on the documents for the danish Pantaenius boat insurances.
No mention of Lithium batteries whatsoever.

https://www.pantaenius.com/dk-da/ser...ser-klausuler/

Can someone produce an actual link to a document from them, that show the 50 cents on the dollar statement, or is it just fake news?

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by SaylorMade

I just did a search on the documents for the danish Pantaenius boat insurances.
No mention of Lithium batteries whatsoever.

https://www.pantaenius.com/dk-da/ser...ser-klausuler/

Can someone produce an actual link to a document from them, that show the 50 cents on the dollar statement, or is it just fake news?

I am curious about the wording as well. If it just says "fire caused by lithium batteries" then any of the half dozen or more lithium batteries in various cell phones, computers, and radios on most boats could be implicated and lead to losing half one's coverage. That seems like a far bigger deal than those with lithium banks because it encompasses nearly everyone!

[Catapault]

Pantaenius Australia, latest PDS, no mention of Lithium at all.

[Melbourne Park]

OK, I will read my policy.

Please note that I am in Australia, and that I was told verbally - from two people, one more senior (not a sales person it seemed to me). Also Pantaenius is a broker -
they find others to make the actual cover. Europe would be a different risk to Melbourne Australia. I presume every risk is individual.

And in Australia, Lithium prices vary enormously. There is an abundance of cheap Lithium batteries here, which follow the common battery marketing claims, which are deceptive and leave valuable information out. As an example, makers claim "drop in replacement for AGM", while in fact, the claims actually concern the size of the battery being similar to an AGM battery, not to the required infrastructure to safely operate the battery. Another example is a costly battery which costs $5,600 from a famous maker, but you can buy the same cells in a better casing for $2,600. So the big makers charge a lot, the small guys give you crap (ie they have limited continuous output, no heat sinks in their BMS - I have seen from a big retailer a BMS that was the size of chewing gum stick with no heat exchange whatsoever), they may not parallel, they may not go in series, electrical wiring robustness unknown inside the batteries, no pictures or explanations of how they are built, weak cases and are not all engineered well, plus they have non verifiable cells. Guarantees sound good but the reality is far from what they seem to promise. etc etc

The reality is that Lithium is in an in-between stage, where small assemblers who can build a battery in their living room, can claim to be major manufacturers of Lithium via fancy web sites. The variance in quality of Lithium is greater than in AGM IMO, and there is a great differential in AGM battery quality. Of course we don't find out until they give up. But is it any wonder that insurers are uncertain about Lithium, considering the huge variance in quality that is out there today?

Strangely, my pdf document does not allow word searching. I might print it and scan it and then I'll be able to do a word search. And Oh, I'll read it.

As far as Pantaenius and the Lithium, they told me that they covered only 50% of damage if caused by the lithium. But they told me over the phone, after I enquired. There was a check box for lithium too, in the original application.

I'll post if I find something.

But almost straight away, I found this:

Limited cover is provided for loss or damage caused by lightning. Insurer‘s liability under this Insurance for Partial Loss caused by lightning is limited to 15% of the Agreed Fixed Value for each occurrence or event.

Now, there is a boat near mine, that was written off by a lightning strike, which happened at Sandringham Yacht Club, in Melbourne. It was the tallest mast in the yard, at the time. The boat I understand, was covered. My mast boat is Sunfast 3200, so its mast would not be the tallest, and my keel is two metres, so many boats draw more. Nonetheless, I am bemused that a 50 odd footer nice boat was paid out, when mine would, from the sound of it, only get 15%.

An old friend of mine has done quite a lot of short handed sailing, and his Sunfast 3600 was beaten by another 3600 in the last Melbourne Osaka race. The 3600 that beat him had Lithium - while he had four AGMs. His batteries would have weighed 35 kg each probably, which is 140kg. I am looking at a single 8 cell battery, assembled in Melbourne, which is probably 340 AH, and has very high quality cells, and its alloy casing and cells etc weighs 30kg. That's a difference of over 100kg. My friend was Dux of Xavier College - the top Catholic school in Melbourne, and he did electronic engineering. Yet he happily sailed with all that extra weight!

For a not heavy boat like mine, 100kg is a fair bit of extra weight. B=I've been told weight improves the rating too. But I'd rather catch a wave more easily due to less weight. i also think that dead weight that can move around in a boat, is less safe than not having that weight.

Incidentally, I am very likely going to switch to Lithium - I don't see how AGM can possibly do a proper job for anyone who wants to charge batteries at sea. A hydro generator though means a battery bank need be minimal. The short handed sailors put a hydro generator on the back of the boat, and really, they then hardly need battery capacity, as long as they are moving forward. They use a constant 8 amps, some the fridge, but most is the auto pilot and instruments. The have the auto pilot on almost all the time.

Carbon AGM batteries would work better than straight AGM, but it seems deep cycle makers are skipping on carbon lead and investing in Lithium. There are quite a few carbon lead (AGM) batteries around in Australia, but they are 6 volt and designed for land solar back up. There are a couple of AGM carbon brands, and they are better than straight AGM for boat usage. But Lithium is so much better, and in a small sail boat, I'd rather safe the space and also be able to have my cake and eat it too. Despite the insurance risk.

Another thing that bemuses me, is that with lithium, in a boat, one could drop gas power. And go all electric. Surely that would be safer than gas. And gas is heavy - it goes to the bilge. Where does it go from there?

And I'll read my documentation as promised and make a post.

[Melbourne Park]

I read my policy (Pantaenius) and there was no specific mention of Lithium.

However - there was a check box for Lithium on the insurance policy's application form.

Further, I asked them and was told verbally, that they would only cover 50% if the damage was caused by a lithium battery.

Further - they have a clause which requires one to inform them of changes.

It says:
1. Change in Risk:
The Insured is required to notify Pantaenius as soon as reasonably possible of any modification to the Vessel or any change in the information provided prior to inception of the policy, whether in the proposal or application form or in any other communication. Failure to do so may entitle us to reduce our liability under This Insurance in respect of a claim, cancel the policy, or both.

So, if one changes to a Lithium battery, one should be informing them about that change. After doing so, I would assume they would have to contact and inform them that the change has effected their insurance status. Or something like that.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally Posted by Catapault

Pantaenius Australia, latest PDS, no mention of Lithium at all.

That would be because they have a separate policy for boats with Lithium. When I insured, there was a check box for lithium. I did not check that box.

I just rang three insurers in Australia and they all allowed Lithium, along with conditions on electrical checks, batteries sold by proper companies, etc.

I then rang Pantaenius again, and they confirmed that they will only cover 50% if the damage is due to a Lithium cause.

They also said they have had many fires.

They said to me for my boat, that they would require full re-wiring by a certified marine electrical company/electrician, along with certification proof that it was all correct. The batteries would have to be sold by the same company/installer. And also, despite re-wiring a 5 year old boat, etc etc, they'd only provide the 50% coverage. The lady who I was passed onto, I would describe as belligerent. On querying the expert in that area at Pantaenius, they the person said that overheating of batteries, lack of ventilation, had been major issues. The person said people were putting in Lithium batteries instead of VRLA without changing anything else. The person said that some loads were asked of the batteries that were huge. I said that my maximum load was 8 amps at 12V, but I don't think the person I spoke to knew the difference between a volt and an amp. Clearly they have encapsulated those who have with ignorance presumed Lithium batteries are similar to lead, with people who do it properly. Hence I guess, the poor 50% coverage. They said they require 30 days to cancel my policy.

So I am now looking at other companies, and speaking to marine electrical guys in Melbourne.

I would advise you Catapault that you contact Pantaenius and confirm with them their policy and also confirm what they say in writing.

Good Luck and let me know what they say. If its OK for you, it should be for me here in Australia.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Melbourne Park

That would be because they have a separate policy for boats with Lithium. When I insured, there was a check box for lithium. I did not check that box.

I just rang three insurers in Australia and they all allowed Lithium, along with conditions on electrical checks, batteries sold by proper companies, etc.

I then rang Pantaenius again, and they confirmed that they will only cover 50% if the damage is due to a Lithium cause.

They also said they have had many fires.

They said to me for my boat, that they would require full re-wiring by a certified marine electrical company/electrician, along with certification proof that it was all correct. The batteries would have to be sold by the same company/installer. And also, despite re-wiring a 5 year old boat, etc etc, they'd only provide the 50% coverage. The lady who I was passed onto, I would describe as belligerent. On querying the expert in that area at Pantaenius, they the person said that overheating of batteries, lack of ventilation, had been major issues. The person said people were putting in Lithium batteries instead of VRLA without changing anything else. The person said that some loads were asked of the batteries that were huge. I said that my maximum load was 8 amps at 12V, but I don't think the person I spoke to knew the difference between a volt and an amp. Clearly they have encapsulated those who have with ignorance presumed Lithium batteries are similar to lead, with people who do it properly. Hence I guess, the poor 50% coverage. They said they require 30 days to cancel my policy.

So I am now looking at other companies, and speaking to marine electrical guys in Melbourne.

I would advise you Catapault that you contact Pantaenius and confirm with them their policy and also confirm what they say in writing.

Good Luck and let me know what they say. If its OK for you, it should be for me here in Australia.

First Pantaenius WAS a good and senseful insurer BEFORE Allianz SE pulled out of Caribbean fully leaving Pantaenius to cover the risks themself. This insurance went from the best to the worst in just under 2 years…
2nd I had talks with several insurances lately (business wise) and when I named Pantaenius their first reaction was: „if we have Pantaenius in a 3rd party liability claim as other insurance we immediately involve a lawyer and the legal department as first step. No single case in the last year where there was no trouble, 2 of 3 cases end at the court“…that says all
Had an incident lately and Pantaenius was worst of all, no reactions and blockage till I reached out via my contacts at Allianz SE. The talk I had with their claims director was a joke, I was a claims director myself so I can judge his communication and his behavior from a Professional point of view. My law insurance putting them to court now, well only because an old colleague is a board member and kicked the law insurance claims director in the ass to declare coverage and order premium support.

My advice:
Well best is you just get a insurance with high deductible to cover really the huge damages and a law insurance. Count that you need to put the law insurance to court for coverage of the case and in parallel on your cost the boat insurance to court to. The rest of premium saved put aside to cover damages happening yourself…better business case
I worked 30years in claims high rank international and the way insurances changed last 5 years made me run away to early retirement…and if I had a case that was only solved by my high rank connections and network. a normal client wouldn‘t had a chance to even get this case registered or get coverage confirmed.

I meanwhile changed from Pantaenius to German HKVA which proven an outstanding service and support, they even took over the running case with Pantaenius and paid in 3 days.

To lithium: don‘t ask your insurer, ask a surveyor that is accredited by your insurance. He is the one that checks your installation and if this is ok with it and certifies that, the insurance can only verify and insure that according to your policy. The more you ask your insurance, the more trouble you get. Just hand in the report with eg rig check and lithium and if insurance doesn‘t react it’s insured as surveyor confirms it’s ok.
The reason insurance wants a „proper company“ and battery sold and installed by this one company so they push the responsiblity and liability to this company and open a triangle liability case where the one loosing will be you. your installation company will always find one void of misuse or voidance of an obligation you where even not aware of….
My surveyor told me he sees much less danger and willing to certify installation if a skilled DIY installing lithium raw cells with its own BMS, has a proper installation diagram and can explain him his/her install. Why because this person know the system, how it works, where stuff is installed and why plus realize very soon when something is off and can troubleshoot it yourself before it’s getting a thread or huge problem.
If a professional company installed it but the user is a noob, the user has no idea about the system and even cannot discover when something is off…he/she only reacts if the system throws a warning or error code or shuts down…and if a claim happen it’s the installation company liability which then proofs you some voidance of operation or maintenance or uses case which stands in their general clauses…they don‘t care if your safe or not, just how they get out of a claim…..

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Melbourne Park

I read my policy (Pantaenius) and there was no specific mention of Lithium.

However - there was a check box for Lithium on the insurance policy's application form.

Further, I asked them and was told verbally, that they would only cover 50% if the damage was caused by a lithium battery.

Further - they have a clause which requires one to inform them of changes.

It says:
1. Change in Risk:
The Insured is required to notify Pantaenius as soon as reasonably possible of any modification to the Vessel or any change in the information provided prior to inception of the policy, whether in the proposal or application form or in any other communication. Failure to do so may entitle us to reduce our liability under This Insurance in respect of a claim, cancel the policy, or both.

So, if one changes to a Lithium battery, one should be informing them about that change. After doing so, I would assume they would have to contact and inform them that the change has effected their insurance status. Or something like that.

Yes talk to your surveyor, let him certify best with other regular checks and hand report in. If insurance doesn‘t react it’s insured. You notified them via the report about lithium install and surveyor certified it’s ok so it’s no change in risk you are aware off and have to report explicitly, so you fulfilled your duty.

As explained below run away from Pantaenius…their terms and conditions have so many rubber paragraphs and exclusion formulated in a way only a very skilled marine lawyer can really imagine what is insured and even he can only imagine as at the end it’s the judges decision….

[clamshack]

In the US, the ABYC just published a Lithium Standard. It is my understanding this replaces a recommendation by the organization. It should be interesting to see if there is any progress on the insurance side in 2023.

[goboatingnow]

Pantaenius have very different policies country to country

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Pantaenius have very different policies country to country

correct but behind ithe scene its same shitty insurer...
it was a great insurer and is now worst now, see above.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by clamshack

In the US, the ABYC just published a Lithium Standard. It is my understanding this replaces a recommendation by the organization. It should be interesting to see if there is any progress on the insurance side in 2023.

As long as the standard recommends Megafuse ******** as lithium main battery fuse that standard is not worth anything....
why calculate the short curcuit ampere a typical 500AH house withe 10milliohm internal resistance creates and then take the spec sheet of Megafuse and you will discover that
1) its 5000-15000A to less means a light bow will just bridge the megafuse
2) pull the amps its rated for for 10min and the fuse holder incl cable will melt
that's reality....
But due to that standard I cannot run 2x 2/0 cable in parallel to pull 300A continuous, because each single cable needs to be rated for 300A....complete ********, one 2/0 can handle it but with high voltage drop so the inverter connected will shut down so there is no problem due to undervoltage, running 2 cables exact length in parallel voltage drop is 0.15V at 300A. Why: route 2 cables much easier and have all tools till 2/0 cable size eg crimper.

its obvious it was just done again by some desk experts who wanna support the manufacturer of batteries and official electric installing companies and block out DIY....