Lithium and Insurance

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

There have been a couple of fires on aircraft and what I was curious about was what precautions, such as sealing them in metal boxes with vents, they might have taken.

Boeing used lithium cobalt, a more volatile battery than LiFePo4.

[CarlF]

LiFePO4 batteries are less likely to start a fire than lead acid batteries.

The most common cause of lead acid battery fire is overcharging which will cause them to heat up. This happens frequently if a plate goes bad causing the charger to think the battery needs more charging. Lead acid batteries have no internal safeguards.

The BMS on any good quality LiFeP04 will shut off charging long before there is any risk of fire.

And most "battery" fires in both lithium and lead acid are in the wiring not the battery. Big enough cables, clean connectors and proper fusing is the answer.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Another big user of these batteries is aircraft. Does anyone know what aircraft manufacturers have done to solve the problem?

6 sigma security, tons of monitoring and safety backup plus extensive testing plus usage of LTO, the safest chemistry today...

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

6 sigma security, tons of monitoring and safety backup plus extensive testing plus usage of LTO, the safest chemistry today...

I know SAFT which supply a lot of airlines are considering a LTO battery range , I have not seen that LTO has been installed by Boeing or Airbus though, have you a reference

[rgleason]

I think that if certain insurance companies are so nervous about DIY LFP Battery installations, that they can just request that the system be reviewed by a qualified electrician for the necessary standards. That would be a reasonable approach.

Also the standards are still being developed and LFP being used in marine applications is still pretty new, so there is a lot of noise about it and many people with different ideas. I think with a good installation using the right BMS and equipment these batteries could prove to be safer than FLA or SLA, and the insurance companies might like that.

It would be very helpful if there were a set of example diagrams open to the public on the ABYC website that met the ABYC requirements to promote good installations. Cruisers need to know that the installation is not necessarily simple and they need to learn how to maintain them properly.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by rgleason

I think that if certain insurance companies are so nervous about DIY LFP Battery installations, that they can just request that the system be reviewed by a qualified electrician for the necessary standards. That would be a reasonable approach.

Also the standards are still being developed and LFP being used in marine applications is still pretty new, so there is a lot of noise about it and many people with different ideas. I think with a good installation using the right BMS and equipment these batteries could prove to be safer than FLA or SLA, and the insurance companies might like that.

It would be very helpful if there were a set of example diagrams open to the public on the ABYC website that met the ABYC requirements to promote good installations. Cruisers need to know that the installation is not necessarily simple and they need to learn how to maintain them properly.

There are no “ certified professionals “that insurance in my neck of the woods could call upon. Such professionals would have to be intimately aware of the EU RCD issues also. Insurance knows this , in my case I’m a qualified engineer , IEEE member etc. they are happy to accept my professionalism.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There are no “ certified professionals “that insurance in my neck of the woods could call upon. Such professionals would have to be intimately aware of the EU RCD issues also. Insurance knows this , in my case I’m a qualified engineer , IEEE member etc. they are happy to accept my professionalism.

Well, I am not an Electrical Engineer, just an Architect, and the insurance company probably would not accept my certification, so I would probably need a professional EE to review the system if the insurance co wanted.

However, I am not so sure that Marine Electricians in the US are as regulated as in the Building Trades, because it is very specialized, and I am totally unaware of the what qualifications and standards are for Marine Electricians.

My impression is that many of them have just been in the trade for years and call themselves Marine Electricians, but perhaps I am wrong about that. (I don't intend to get Marine Electricians worked up about this, just trying to learn.)

I would be interested to know more. What body trains and certifies them? Are there levels of certification? or is a Master Electrician qualified to do Marine? Are they all required to carry insurance or should we be asking?

[Wander4Wonder]

do these insurance firms also investigate or conflate the alleged issues with the batteries with the issues around more everyday lithium battery usage in day to day electronics which seem to have more risk of damage from water, corrosion, or heat than the LiPO battery banks?

I mean I think its safe to say that we are carrying around more rechargeable personal electrics such as iPads/tablets, cellphones, camera batteries, battery packs, handheld GPS, torches/flashlights, etc.

I have seen various products for storing batteries (kevlar/fireresistant charging pouches, and boxes..) they are smaller so they aren't as big a source of fire, but maybe a more common spark or tinder for a boat.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Wander4Wonder

do these insurance firms also investigate or conflate the alleged issues with the batteries with the issues around more everyday lithium battery usage in day to day electronics which seem to have more risk of damage from water, corrosion, or heat than the LiPO battery banks?



I mean I think its safe to say that we are carrying around more rechargeable personal electrics such as iPads/tablets, cellphones, camera batteries, battery packs, handheld GPS, torches/flashlights, etc.



I have seen various products for storing batteries (kevlar/fireresistant charging pouches, and boxes..) they are smaller so they aren't as big a source of fire, but maybe a more common spark or tinder for a boat.

The current state of play from my interaction with Pantenious is that they are actively evolving their policy on Lithium

They are aware of LiFePO4 . Currently their opening “ gambit “ is 50% cover of damage is the result of a Lithium fire. This would have to established of course.

But they are evolving this position , greased of course by higher premiums.

They do not insist on non diy installs , what they ask for is a professional certification. WhT that is is unclear. In my case they will accept my bone fides in other cases they would require say a marine electronics dealer to “ certify “. That certification does not guarantee conformance with ISO for example as this is not law. It’s unlikely anyway as this insurer does not formally need CE certification anyway.

Hence currently the issue is in flux , my agent mentions such issues are getting more common and the insurers are considering their opinion.

Basically fill them in and see where it takes you.

[Wander4Wonder]

have people who have migrated from LPG to electric grills and ovens seen any offsetting? I would think the benefit of removing LPG tanks is a bigger reduction in any risks than lithium is 'assumed' to be.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Wander4Wonder

have people who have migrated from LPG to electric grills and ovens seen any offsetting? I would think the benefit of removing LPG tanks is a bigger reduction in any risks than lithium is 'assumed' to be.

Insurers understand gas and it’s been on board for decades. Lithium is new and not understood.

[wefleenor]

FYI - I use an insurance broker and I posed the LFP question to them with the following answer:

One company has said they aren’t excluded in the policy, but that when a claim happens they would have to divert the decision on coverage over their Claim’s Dept. (Seems rather wishy-washy to us.)

Another company is requiring LifePO4 technology. Requiring professional US based installation and manufacturer must be US based. They would limit the amount of liability and hull coverage, which would make your boat ineligible for coverage. They also would increase the rate.

You are currently with Travelers. They have not expressed concerns, to date.

This seems to be an evolving issue as the companies have claims as well as more people installing them.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wefleenor

FYI - I use an insurance broker and I posed the LFP question to them with the following answer:

One company has said they aren’t excluded in the policy, but that when a claim happens they would have to divert the decision on coverage over their Claim’s Dept. (Seems rather wishy-washy to us.)

Another company is requiring LifePO4 technology. Requiring professional US based installation and manufacturer must be US based. They would limit the amount of liability and hull coverage, which would make your boat ineligible for coverage. They also would increase the rate.

You are currently with Travelers. They have not expressed concerns, to date.

This seems to be an evolving issue as the companies have claims as well as more people installing them.

Yes indeed , as I said the position is evolving on a week by week basis and is different from insurer to insurer

What’s the case today is “some reduction “ in cover will have to accepted if you want to install lithium. What ever that is and whatever you are comfortable with is up to individuals.

Over time both with claims history ( or lack hopefully ) the application of ABYC or ISO standards and increasing understanding by insurers will move their position.

[rgleason]

I behooves all actors involved or interested in LFP's to share information, be open and develop the most reliable systems possible, with an open set of "standards" and a practical system of inspection and certification, insuring every system is safe and the users are educated in LFP operation.

Right now the inventors are still tinkering and learning. In my opinion LFP industry is a very very long way from being sustainable.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Yes indeed , as I said the position is evolving on a week by week basis and is different from insurer to insurer

What’s the case today is “some reduction “ in cover will have to accepted if you want to install lithium. What ever that is and whatever you are comfortable with is up to individuals.

Over time both with claims history ( or lack hopefully ) the application of ABYC or ISO standards and increasing understanding by insurers will move their position.

[BlueH2Obound]

Give it a few days, and insurance companies and other keyboard commandos will be screaming that all the boats damaged in Hurricane Ian that had LiFePO4 batteries installed were damaged/sunk because of their lithium battery installations.

Does anyone have any FACTUAL, firsthand documentation that you can direct me to of any boat loss where LiFePO4 batteries, installed with due care and diligence, was determined by competent authorities to be the DIRECT CAUSE of the loss?

Note: I'm not interested in what someone heard from their sister's hairdresser's dead Aunt, so please don't waste your and my time posting anecdotal "evidence".

I've seen several boat losses/damage that have occurred where LiFePO4 batteries were PRESENT, but had nothing to do with the cause of the damage, yet they were touted by members of several forums as being the DIRECT CAUSE of the loss. . . .

One of them offered up on an RV site as having been "caused" by the "LiFePO4 installation", and used as "proof" of how dangerous the technology was, was later determined to be a result of a failed propane/electric refrigerator which caused the fire. Yes, LiFePO4 batteries WERE present. On the floor of the salon, unopened, still in the manufacturers shipping boxes awaiting installation . . . .

Unfortunately insurance companies often listen to the loudest voice, instead of science, reason, and facts.