Lithium and Insurance

[kiwin]

LFP IS lithium ion. It's one variant of lithium ion and yes I understand that it does not have the thermal runaway issue of NMC chemistry but it still uses lithium ions....:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lith...sphate_battery

[Melbourne Park]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Again I feel like I must be living in some parallel universe here.....I have never heard of a "certified electrical survey" for insurance, can anyone provide an example of the clause requiring this in any policy? Can anyone provide an example of a "lithium" clause or "no lithium" clause as the case may be in an actual policy?

My insurer has a tick box for lithium. My boat currently has AGM, and not the ones specified by the maker of the boat (which specified a much faster charging spiral bound AGM). Many older boats had gel lead acid as battery banks. I suspect I'll go for carbon lead acid batteries, as the insurance company doesn't query them, and its a simple replacement. While lithium will save a lot more weight, ultimately its one's charging capability that is the name of the game. And the game depends on what one's power requirements are, and if one is day sailing, ocean voyaging, ocean racing, etc.

[kiwin]

I deliver yachts. So I get involved peripherally in yacht sales process frequently. If a boat is very complicated electrically then it is not uncommon to have a qualified marine electrician to survey the boat. Many yachts these days have 110v AC and 220v AC, 12v DC, 24 or 48v DC or both, inverters for both 110 & 220v ac systems, generators, isolation transformers, photovoltaic systems, wind generators, hydrogenerators etc etc. You get the point. Would you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a boat without knowing if any of that was about to cause a fire?

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by kiwin

LFP IS lithium ion. It's one variant of lithium ion and yes I understand that it does not have the thermal runaway issue of NMC chemistry but it still uses lithium ions....:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lith...sphate_battery

Sure, but it would be foolish to treat them all as if they were dangerous based on one type.

Diesel and petrol are both fuel but there is only one that you would carry in vaste quantity in safety below decks.

[kiwin]

"Sure, but it would be foolish to treat them all as if they were dangerous based on one type"
Go tell it to Pantaenius. They are the only remaining insurer for blue water in NZ.

[ozsailer]

Gday everyone, just a couple of observations.
1) To me this discussion can be sorted fairly straight forward by contacting your insurance company and asking them what their requirements are. I have no doubt each insurance company will have their own requirements and specifications.
2) In regard to Electrical surveys. Now that is an interesting question and in over 40 years of boating (and being a licensed electrician) I have never seen or heard of. I am not saying they don't exist just that I have never heard of one. Having done numerous electrical repairs and upgrades to my own boats and also friends I think you find any electrical survey would have a stipulation/waiver indicating that no all wiring and connections could be checked due to location etc.
3) Where one insurance company stated that if the fire was as a result of the Lithium battery there would be a large excess, I would be most interested how their assessor would come to this conclusion. Having been involved in many fire investigations it is very difficult to prove cause of fire (not impossible just dam difficult even for experts.
4) I no longer give advise to people regarding electrical installations due to the insurance, safety and litigation possibilities and also sadly I have given direction to acquaintances only for them to disregard my recommendations and go their own way only for installation to fail then they ask why.
5) DIY battery installations are very doable but be aware of the shortfalls should you get it wrong. A simple phone call to your insurance company can save you lots of heartache and money down the line.


Ozsailer.
currently boatless

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Melbourne Park

Its a bit difficult to contact him for references s- he flew last Thursday to France, to collect his boat, an Amel 50. He was not speaking hearsay at all. It repeated what he was told, and having just insured a $US 1.5 million boat, he's very much in touch with his insurance costs.



And you did not mention a major issue with Lithium Iron - its efficiency. Being able to dissipate energy faster does not make a battery dangerous - but it being able to unload its power quickly can be dangerous.



I'd like to replace my setup with Lithium - and I am familiar with it in an off road caravan. I want it in my boat because it saves weight, and space as well. My boat will go faster if I save 50kg. Not much faster, but everything counts and I just like Lithium.



But I'll probably go Carbon lead batteries. Which also are more efficient, but insurance companies only pick out Lithium.



You might also consider why insurance companies are (or most of them) punishing Lithium usage. And the answer is quite simple. Their experience in boat failures has shown Lithium is causing insurance claims. Which is what the owner of the Amel said. Funny about that ...

Insurance companies quote all sorts of nonsense and cross reference fires from one lithium chemistry to another or EVs to boats

It’s BS. I’m not aware of a serious issue with LFP ever.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

Gday everyone, just a couple of observations.

1) To me this discussion can be sorted fairly straight forward by contacting your insurance company and asking them what their requirements are. I have no doubt each insurance company will have their own requirements and specifications.

2) In regard to Electrical surveys. Now that is an interesting question and in over 40 years of boating (and being a licensed electrician) I have never seen or heard of. I am not saying they don't exist just that I have never heard of one. Having done numerous electrical repairs and upgrades to my own boats and also friends I think you find any electrical survey would have a stipulation/waiver indicating that no all wiring and connections could be checked due to location etc.

3) Where one insurance company stated that if the fire was as a result of the Lithium battery there would be a large excess, I would be most interested how their assessor would come to this conclusion. Having been involved in many fire investigations it is very difficult to prove cause of fire (not impossible just dam difficult even for experts.

4) I no longer give advise to people regarding electrical installations due to the insurance, safety and litigation possibilities and also sadly I have given direction to acquaintances only for them to disregard my recommendations and go their own way only for installation to fail then they ask why.

5) DIY battery installations are very doable but be aware of the shortfalls should you get it wrong. A simple phone call to your insurance company can save you lots of heartache and money down the line.





Ozsailer.

currently boatless

Unless your insurance company specifically mentions lithium’s in the small print. I would not inform them. Do not offer information you are not required to give

[ozsailer]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Unless your insurance company specifically mentions lithium’s in the small print. I would not inform them. Do not offer information you are not required to give

What is wrong with a simple phone call. Why this ostrich approach. Do you want to find out any possible issue at first opportunity or when things turn to crap and the stress starts. Is it me that something so simple as a confirmation phone call (with email response) is so hard for people to understand. Please explain what I am missing.


Ozsailer

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

What is wrong with a simple phone call. Why this ostrich approach. Do you want to find out any possible issue at first opportunity or when things turn to crap and the stress starts. Is it me that something so simple as a confirmation phone call (with email response) is so hard for people to understand. Please explain what I am missing.


Ozsailer

Insurance is a contract. If you honestly answer every question asked and they write a contract that is silent on a specific item, they can't later contractually exclude it. So if you can read and have your policy, you know exactly what is covered and what isn't. If you volunteer information then at best you'll be in exactly the same position as before, but they can also take that as a prompt to add something that is not to your benefit. Why incur that risk when you can simply read your own policy? Not to mention that what an agent tells you in the phone isn't legally binding and many are shockingly ignorant of their own field.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

What is wrong with a simple phone call. Why this ostrich approach. Do you want to find out any possible issue at first opportunity or when things turn to crap and the stress starts. Is it me that something so simple as a confirmation phone call (with email response) is so hard for people to understand. Please explain what I am missing.





Ozsailer

This is not how insurance works.

You answer the required questions honesty , you abide by the small print.

At that point a contract exists. If they don’t refer to lithium batteries or have a clause that captures that, then you don’t volunteer unwanted information nor can they exclude that subsequently

[ozsailer]

Having read a few of the comments I have to concede that I am basing my answers and responses based on the marine insurance business's I have dealt with here in Australia. It may well be that different insurance companies either here in Oz or internationally have different clauses and definitions. I have dug up the disclosure certificate for my last policy (Lagoon 440) We were insured with Topsail with the policy being underwritten by Lloyds.

The first item I believe is of great importance is the following defintion of mechanical in the PDS -
Machinery - includes but is not limited to main or
auxiliary engines, outboard motors not exceeding
10hp unless specified in the Certificate of
Insurance, gearboxes, starter motors, alternators,
electrical and mechanical equipment, cables and
fittings, hydraulic equipment, piping and fittings,
boilers, shafts, exhaust systems, generators, air
conditioning equipment, tanks, pumps and water
makers.

Please note in this definition that electrical is covered under this definition including cables etc. I have no doubt batteries are covered in this definition based on what is written.

Further along in the PDS it clearly states

5. We may refuse a claim if amongst other things:
5.1 You do not do what Your Duty of Disclosure
requires You to do; in the application or when make
a claim, You:
5.1.1 are not truthful;
5.1.2 have not given Us, or refuse to give full and
complete details; or
5.1.3 have not told Us something You should
have

I am of the opinion that if you have changed your battery system from AGMs etc to Lithium etc this clause will be the one that will cause you stress if an issue arose and you make a claim. I am no lawyer/solicitor but I am of the firm opinion that the language is pretty straight forward in particular section 5.1.3

Finally I have cut and pasted the following directly from the PDS
"4.5 the failure of any component of the Vessel’s
Machinery, if :
(a) the Machinery is more than 10 years old
from the date of first manufacture;
(b) is not professionally installed;

Pleas note 4.5(b) I once again believe that this is pretty self explanatory and you are open to a hold world of stress.

I have viewed the PDS of Club Marine, a major player in the marine insurance industry here in Australia. They have similar clauses but this one in particular covers the thread nicely.

1. Duty Not To Misrepresent
(a) The 2nd paragraph under the heading “Make sure You understand what is and isn’t covered” on page 4 is
deleted and replaced with:
You have a duty to take reasonable care not to make a misrepresentation to Us when answering the questions
We ask You before You enter into Your Policy. This duty applies not only when You take out the insurance for
the first time, but also whenever You renew, extend, vary or reinstate the cover. If You do not meet this duty,
We may reject or not fully pay Your claim and/or cancel Your Policy. If the misrepresentation was deliberate or
reckless, this is an act of fraud, and We may also treat Your Policy as if it never existed.

Please accept I am not trying to upset anyone but only to ensure everyone completely understand the possible ramifications of installing Lithium batteries and possible outcomes if not done correctly, no more no less. I am no fan of insurance companies and had my fair share of arguments with them but at the end of the day as the boat owner you are responsible for full disclosure. My apologies for the length of the post but it is important

Ozsailer

[kiwin]

It isn't even a matter of disclosure or not. Most or all insurance companies will require a survey. The survey will detail all the equipment on board including the batteries.

[Ballsnall]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

(b) is not professionally installed;

This does not preclude DIY if the work is to the professional standard.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

Having read a few of the comments I have to concede that I am basing my answers and responses based on the marine insurance business's I have dealt with here in Australia. It may well be that different insurance companies either here in Oz or internationally have different clauses and definitions. I have dug up the disclosure certificate for my last policy (Lagoon 440) We were insured with Topsail with the policy being underwritten by Lloyds.

The first item I believe is of great importance is the following defintion of mechanical in the PDS -
Machinery - includes but is not limited to main or
auxiliary engines, outboard motors not exceeding
10hp unless specified in the Certificate of
Insurance, gearboxes, starter motors, alternators,
electrical and mechanical equipment, cables and
fittings, hydraulic equipment, piping and fittings,
boilers, shafts, exhaust systems, generators, air
conditioning equipment, tanks, pumps and water
makers.

Please note in this definition that electrical is covered under this definition including cables etc. I have no doubt batteries are covered in this definition based on what is written.

Further along in the PDS it clearly states

5. We may refuse a claim if amongst other things:
5.1 You do not do what Your Duty of Disclosure
requires You to do; in the application or when make
a claim, You:
5.1.1 are not truthful;
5.1.2 have not given Us, or refuse to give full and
complete details; or
5.1.3 have not told Us something You should
have

I am of the opinion that if you have changed your battery system from AGMs etc to Lithium etc this clause will be the one that will cause you stress if an issue arose and you make a claim. I am no lawyer/solicitor but I am of the firm opinion that the language is pretty straight forward in particular section 5.1.3

Finally I have cut and pasted the following directly from the PDS
"4.5 the failure of any component of the Vessel’s
Machinery, if :
(a) the Machinery is more than 10 years old
from the date of first manufacture;
(b) is not professionally installed;

Pleas note 4.5(b) I once again believe that this is pretty self explanatory and you are open to a hold world of stress.

I have viewed the PDS of Club Marine, a major player in the marine insurance industry here in Australia. They have similar clauses but this one in particular covers the thread nicely.

1. Duty Not To Misrepresent
(a) The 2nd paragraph under the heading “Make sure You understand what is and isn’t covered” on page 4 is
deleted and replaced with:
You have a duty to take reasonable care not to make a misrepresentation to Us when answering the questions
We ask You before You enter into Your Policy. This duty applies not only when You take out the insurance for
the first time, but also whenever You renew, extend, vary or reinstate the cover. If You do not meet this duty,
We may reject or not fully pay Your claim and/or cancel Your Policy. If the misrepresentation was deliberate or
reckless, this is an act of fraud, and We may also treat Your Policy as if it never existed.

Please accept I am not trying to upset anyone but only to ensure everyone completely understand the possible ramifications of installing Lithium batteries and possible outcomes if not done correctly, no more no less. I am no fan of insurance companies and had my fair share of arguments with them but at the end of the day as the boat owner you are responsible for full disclosure. My apologies for the length of the post but it is important

Ozsailer

Wow, you really get nothing from your insurance in Australia. I am struck by the 10 year old rule, so effectively no insurance for a boat more than 10 years old? And "have not told Us something You should have", that could mean absolutely anything! Why even bother to get insurance unless its required for something like your marina?