Another 40 containers!

[IslandHopper]

[NevilleCat]

[QUOTE=chrisr;3148211]

Originally Posted by Mr B

of course this doesn't help a lot when a ship loses power, turns beam on and starts rolling. then all bets are off...plus a few containers.

as we all know : 'sh1t happens'

cheers,

This seems like a problem that must be addressed; if a short loss of power can lead to 40 containers going overboard then realistically there is a fundamental issue around transportation and the concept of containers and the way they are currently transported.
If this debris can float then it becomes a danger to navigation and if it sinks then it still is a potential ecological problem and pollution either way.
If it takes a financial impost to challenge the thinking around this then we should support AMSA in it's current claim to recover the cost of recovery of the last lot of containers, and hope that they have a successful outcome and the same actions can be applied in this new case as they should be.

[IslandHopper]

APL England ship's cargo-securing 'inadequate, corroded' before losing 40 containers

https://www.amsa.gov.au/news-communi...gn=APL_England

Update: 28 May
Inspections

Inspections of the ship has found inadequate lashing arrangements for cargo and heavily corroded securing points for containers on the deck.

These inspection findings are a clear breach of requirements under the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS).

The APL England is currently being detained in the Port of Brisbane and the detention will not be lifted until these serious deficiencies are fixed. This is a now matter for the ship’s owner, American President Lines (APL), and the operator to rectify.

Investigations

All findings will form part of AMSA’s ongoing investigation and, while not to pre-empt the outcomes of the investigation, it is clear that the risk of container loss could have been reduced.

Actions

AMSA expects the ship owner and its insurer to take full responsibility for addressing any impacts of this incident.

We have heard today the insurer is already engaging contractors to retrieve some of the floating containers.

AMSA’s Challenger jet continued its search last night with an aerial survey of the New South Wales coastline to assist in locating and identifying semi-submerged containers in the water. The search identified two targets which we now know are five containers, including one set of four containers locked together.

[Dsanduril]

I wonder if this was a Freudian slip:

AMSA expects the ship owner and its insurer to take full responsibility for addressing any impacts of this incident.

I also I find it quite interesting that AMSA found heavily corroded lashing points on a 19-year-old ship. That seems to point to a pretty significant lack of maintenance.

And, oh yeah, that is one scary picture that will give me nightmares. Watch or no watch (see other thread) that one would be hard to detect at night.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

I wonder if this was a Freudian slip:



I also I find it quite interesting that AMSA found heavily corroded lashing points on a 19-year-old ship. That seems to point to a pretty significant lack of maintenance.

And, oh yeah, that is one scary picture that will give me nightmares. Watch or no watch (see other thread) that one would be hard to detect at night.

19 years old is pretty much 'end of life' for ships due to the severity of the 20 year survey. Most ships are pretty much stuffed at that age.. some more than others , tankers and bulkers sooner... passo boats ...which lead a genteel life.. later.

Another small point from further up the thread.... APL or 'American President Lines' is just a brand these days. While flagged and operated out of Singapore the brand and the ship are French owned... all part of the CMA CGM shipping group.... 4th largest container shipping operator on the planet.

[JPA Cate]

Here's a link to an ABC article with some pics, but none as scary to a sailor as the one of the containers, partly submerged. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-...-ship/12291416

Some empty containers have washed ashore, still connected together. Ironically, some of the cargo was face masks, for health care workers.

It'll be interesting to see if APL pay up for the cleanup.

Ann

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

APL or 'American President Lines' is just a brand these days

Yeah, I knew that. I think they just go by "APL" now as a name, not as an acronym for what it used to mean. Just funny to me that a line that still bears the APL name and used to name all their ships after US presidents now has a ship named after the country from which those presidents threw off the yoke. Times change.

[hpeer]

I don’t know if this is relevant.

In the El Fajaro (sp?) sinking, (run from Florida to Puerto Rico hit a hurricane) they found the cause to be some leaking caused a heel, which cause the less than full asymmetric oil sump to suck air, which shut down the propulsion.

There was the cruise ship off Norway last year that had a similar problem. Apparently these motors have huge oil sumps and they are frequently not topped off; cost savings?

My question is could a low oil sump level combined with a roll have caused air in the line and a loss of lube which causes the motors to shut down in a protective manner?

The oil lines can be refilled and the engines restarted, but it takes a while to accomplish this.

[Mr B]

Paint covers a lot of internal rust on ships,
Majority of workers wouldnt know if the ship was rusting out from under them or not,
Rust on ships is common every where on a ship,,
Its there, No one worries about it, Its not their concern either,

I went onto a bulk sugar carrier to install new posts for lighting to help unload the ship at night,
Just weld the vertical posts on the angles on the side of the ship, No problem,
Chipped away the 10 mm thick paint on the diagonal angles,
The paint looked great, No rust on the outside,
Inside the paint, There was no steel left, It had completely rusted away,
Just the nice looking paint was left,

I had to replace the angles on all the diagonal bracing before I could weld my new posts on to the angles,

Ship surveyors have approx a day and half while the ship is in port to inspect a ship that is possibly 300 yards long or more,

Its a very cursory inspection, Unless its blatantly obvious, ( some thing actually broken off) It wont get noticed, Or repaired,
I cant see a ships surveyor climbing up to the top of a container stack to check the bracing or the welded lugs holding them on in the time they have to inspect a ship,

Ships have to be totally inspected and repaired over a four year period,
They do have a check list they have to follow from port to port,
But it is impossible to check a whole ship in the time allocated,
So a lot of repairs are never done,
Its events like this when the damage leads to containers falling overboard or the ship sinking that the authorities start jumping up and down,

Over 40 years in ship repair, I do have some idea on what goes on,

Cheers, Brian,

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by hpeer

I don’t know if this is relevant.

In the El Fajaro (sp?) sinking, (run from Florida to Puerto Rico hit a hurricane) they found the cause to be some leaking caused a heel, which cause the less than full asymmetric oil sump to suck air, which shut down the propulsion.

There was the cruise ship off Norway last year that had a similar problem. Apparently these motors have huge oil sumps and they are frequently not topped off; cost savings?

My question is could a low oil sump level combined with a roll have caused air in the line and a loss of lube which causes the motors to shut down in a protective manner?

The oil lines can be refilled and the engines restarted, but it takes a while to accomplish this.

Wasn't that the El Faro, lost with all hands?

That is a very reasonable hypothesis, hpeer. Don't know if we'll find out in the short term, but it certainly accounts for the facts as we understand them. I really like that pic of the ship from astern, with the ranks of containers laying over both to port and starboard. Bet that made a heck of a noise!

Ann

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by hpeer

I don’t know if this is relevant.

In the El Fajaro (sp?) sinking, (run from Florida to Puerto Rico hit a hurricane) they found the cause to be some leaking caused a heel, which cause the less than full asymmetric oil sump to suck air, which shut down the propulsion.

There was the cruise ship off Norway last year that had a similar problem. Apparently these motors have huge oil sumps and they are frequently not topped off; cost savings?

My question is could a low oil sump level combined with a roll have caused air in the line and a loss of lube which causes the motors to shut down in a protective manner?

The oil lines can be refilled and the engines restarted, but it takes a while to accomplish this.

actually i think you will find that large 2-stroke marine diesels do not have a sump...

cheers,

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Here's a link to an ABC article with some pics, but none as scary to a sailor as the one of the containers, partly submerged. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-...-ship/12291416

Some empty containers have washed ashore, still connected together. Ironically, some of the cargo was face masks, for health care workers.

It'll be interesting to see if APL pay up for the cleanup.

Ann

Wishful thinking Ann, MSC has yet to pay for the loss of hundreds of containers overboard (and cleanup costs ) off the coast of the Netherlands. The only way to get justice is to ban MSC and other offending companies from entering the affected countries ports until the salvage and cleanup costs have been met.

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by chrisr

actually i think you will find that large 2-stroke marine diesels do not have a sump...



cheers,

Your’e right, often they don’t but the generators are more frequently the initial point of failure and once AC power is lost, , all the main engine systems fail and a shutdown is initiated. Steering is also a casualty of a generator shutdown. Sometimes the problem is lube oil but in a 30° roll a loss of sea suction is also probable.
The cruise ship “Viking sky” had a series of low engine oil alarm shutdowns on ALL 4 main propulsion generator engines almost resulting in the loss of the ship but happily survived the incident.

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

Your’e right, often they don’t but the generators are more frequently the initial point of failure and once AC power is lost, , all the main engine systems fail and a shutdown is initiated. Steering is also a casualty of a generator shutdown. Sometimes the problem is lube oil but in a 30° roll a loss of sea suction is also probable.
The cruise ship “Viking sky” had a series of low engine oil alarm shutdowns on ALL 4 main propulsion generator engines almost resulting in the loss of the ship but happily survived the incident.

a ship like APL England will have at least 3 generators. only one will be needed at sea (or perhaps two if she has a lot of reefers onboard)

shipboard systems will automatically start another gennie if one running shuts down for any reason...or the engineers could bring one on line within minutes

certainly a loss of AC can cause all sorts of problems (remind me to tell you how we drowned the main switchboard on a 57k bulkie one day, about 5' off a lee shore), but the problem is 99 times more likely to be control system than lube oil

oh, and i'll wager the issue on Viking Sky was hydraulic oil pressure to the drive legs...a situation impossible on normal ships like APL England

cheers,

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by chrisr

actually i think you will find that large 2-stroke marine diesels do not have a sump...

cheers,

The Warsilla in the Emma Maersk has two primary lubricating systems.

One system lubricates the crankshaft and bearings, cross heads and cross head slides and the oil does not require changing because it never comes in contact with combustion residues.

The second lubricates the pistons, and tends to be sacrificial and requires fairly constant topping up when the engine is running.

A gland separates and seals the crank case from a plenum chamber which is kept pressurized. As is usual with a two stroke ports in the bottom of the cylinders open up with the descending piston allowing pressurized air from the plenum to flush out combustion products from the cylinder. There is one very large (about a meter diameter) hydraulically operated exhaust valve in the head.