 |
|
04-01-2024, 20:16
|
#46
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2020
Boat: Lagoon 380
Posts: 15
|
Re: The external regulator we've all been waiting for!
Yes you can cut and splice the thermistors. Twisted Pair wire is recommended to protect from any electrical noise.
If you're using 24AWG wire, which has a resistance of about 25 Ohms per 1000 feet. So 2000 feet of additional wire (2 directions) will result in 100 Ohms which will change the resistance of the sensor by 1%.
The maximum amount of total thermistor wire is 500feet or 152.4meters.
|
|
|
04-01-2024, 20:40
|
#47
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2020
Boat: Lagoon 380
Posts: 15
|
Re: The external regulator we've all been waiting for!
I used the Blue Sea Systems 8255 500A/50mV shunt for my alternator shunt because I had one laying around, though the Victron Shu500050100 is a bit cheaper in cost...
|
|
|
14-01-2024, 12:41
|
#48
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Anacortes WA
Boat: Kadey-Krogen 42
Posts: 3
|
Re: The external regulator we've all been waiting for!
Does anyone have information on a twin-engine installation? I have heard from an ARCO sales employee that this can be done with a single Zeus, but I haven’t been able to find information on that. I have also pinged ARCO tech support, so I will post if I learn anything. Any input here is appreciated!
|
|
|
23-01-2024, 08:54
|
#49
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2020
Boat: Lagoon 380
Posts: 15
|
Re: The external regulator we've all been waiting for!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoatGuyBill
Does anyone have information on a twin-engine installation? I have heard from an ARCO sales employee that this can be done with a single Zeus, but I haven’t been able to find information on that. I have also pinged ARCO tech support, so I will post if I learn anything. Any input here is appreciated!
|
In multiple alternator setups, a Zeus is required for each alternator. The Zeus devices currently NMEA 2000 connect together and will coordinate charging between the units. In the case that one engine or the other is running, the Zeus on the active engine takes over charging. This is a common setup in Catamarans and we have achieved this in both beta testing as well as in customer installations.
|
|
|
30-01-2024, 17:43
|
#50
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 41
|
Re: The external regulator we've all been waiting for!
What is meant by "Co-ordinate" Charging?
Does that mean either of the alternator/regulator setups will charge the bank at a time or both can simultaneously charge the bank (assuming the bank can accept a high charge rate)?
|
|
|
19-03-2024, 14:22
|
#51
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2020
Boat: Lagoon 380
Posts: 15
|
Re: The external regulator we've all been waiting for!
I posted this in another thread, but thought I'd bring it here as well:
Testing of the Zeus has proved phenomenal, especially on a recent trip when we identified that our 7+ year old AGM house bank is nearing end of life, and we were able to salvage our refrigerated and frozen goods through use of the Zeus.
We've learned a few things, which I wanted to share with this group, and may be able to answer some questions as well:
During multiple installations, we've noted best performance of the Zeus with adding the currently mandated battery shunt to the high or positive side of the battery bank, especially in 24V and 48V systems. While this doesn't currently help with current owners of Lynx Distributor and Lynx BMS installations, keep reading. Installing an optional shunt on the alternator high side is also recommended for best performance. We're routinely using Victron SHU500050100 shunts as a cost effective option.
Another note, during installation, there is a yellow and black wire on the Zeus alternator harness, "ALT GND" which is for a ground of the Zeus to the Alternator. In some installations, this has caused a ground loop, so we are advising to not connect this wire during installation and simply tuck it away.
All harness wires can be extended so that the Zeus can be mounted where it is easiest in each installation.
Current testing is underway for an over-the-air Zeus firmware update which will negate the current requirement for a battery side shunt connection and will allow the Zeus to take battery readings from a canbus or N2K network. Likewise, recent beta-testing of Victron GX systems are populating Zeus data on the Victron system, and it is expected that the Zeus will be displayed as an additional power input to the Victron system, similar to how MPPT/Multi are currently. DVCC settings in the GX will also be able to control power input from the Zeus. Both updates are expected to be released in April/May of this year.
I hope this answers some questions and helps, we love our Zeus...now the biggest dilemma of the day when off grid is, do we run the Zeus or break out the old Honda EU2200 for our power needs.
|
|
|
07-12-2024, 03:14
|
#52
|
Registered User
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Whangarei
Boat: Bavaria 38 Cruiser, 12meters, 2004
Posts: 233
|
Re: The external regulator we've all been waiting for!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingharry
Yes, a completely useless Panbo writeup.
Are none of our forumites aware enough about this amazing product to provide responses to my questions? The literature seems silent on details.
|
Do you still have questions re the Arco Zeus.
We have just installed one for a Lithium upgrade and it's been a very interesting learning curve.
Here's a lengthy post commenting on various issues as we installed the Zeus and Victron management components, for interest:
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3955420
|
|
|
07-12-2024, 14:36
|
#53
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Annapolis, MD
Boat: Sabre 34-1 (sold) and Saga 43
Posts: 2,794
|
Re: The external regulator we've all been waiting for!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry1
|
Not really. Pretty much none of my questions from post #10 have been answered very well, but I'm overwhelmingly uninterested. I have a pair of ancient Balmar MC-612s running my two alternators, and I have heard nothing to indicate a single benefit of a Zeus over them. I have a Link2000 that provides extremely robust SOC data, as well as charge/discharge data, that can be easily seen every time I'm at the nav station (without opening a phone app or firing up my nav instruments -- and BTW, the Triton2 won't display the single most important parameter, SOC). My BMS will directly control my old Barmar regulators.
Some of the niche stuff the Zeus does doesn't apply to a robust system, but may really apply to a relatively rare situation where a small engine has a large alternator, and needs a way to dial it back.
On my boat, a 43' with a 50hp engine (4JH2E), my Balmars run my alternators at 100% of possible capacity 100% of the time (they dial back for over temp, and they dial back when the battery is full -- that is what I mean by 100% of possible capacity). A system that allows for artifically decreasing the output, and then touting the ability to un-limit them, doesn't make sense at least for me. The Zeus certainly won't give me even 1% increase in power output over the Balmars. I could (and might!) install a small engine mode switch, to give me the Zeus ability of freeing up engine HP when really needed (that, or an on/off switch if I really need ALL the capacity).
Bottom line, I have trouble seeing any meaningful reason to remove a functioning Balmar and install a Zeus. I even have trouble seeing why a Zeus is worth triple the cost of a Balmar in a new installation. One possible reason is that for people whose only tool is a checkbook, Zeus service cost might be lower due to remote management potential (oh, wait, that means I need an always-on network on the boat too?). But for a good DIY, the primary benefit is gee-wiz shiny object stuff.
I'll admit that the argument "install a Zeus, and remove your generator" has turned me off since the very beginning. A primary feature of a Zeus is that it dials back your alternator output, producing less power than with a traditional external regulator, and somehow this reduced power eliminates the need for a generator.
|
|
|
07-12-2024, 15:09
|
#54
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Victoria, BC Canada
Boat: Nordic Tug 37
Posts: 150
|
Re: The external regulator we've all been waiting for!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingharry
Not really. Pretty much none of my questions from post #10 have been answered very well, but I'm overwhelmingly uninterested. I have a pair of ancient Balmar MC-612s running my two alternators, and I have heard nothing to indicate a single benefit of a Zeus over them.
My BMS will directly control my old Balmar regulators.
Some of the niche stuff the Zeus does doesn't apply to a robust system, but may really apply to a relatively rare situation where a small engine has a large alternator, and needs a way to dial it back.
On my boat, a 43' with a 50hp engine (4JH2E), my Balmars run my alternators at 100% of possible capacity 100% of the time (they dial back for over temp, and they dial back when the battery is full -- that is what I mean by 100% of possible capacity).
|
How do you get your Balmar regulators to respond to SOC instead of simple battery Voltage as their "time to change mode" indicator?
My Balmar regulator's programming is entirely dependent on Voltage and Timer type parameters which work quite poorly (read inappropriately) with a LFP house bank.
I elected to charge my LFP house bank via 2 x Orion-XS DCDC chargers for now but when the Balmar bites the dust, I would, without hesitation, go for the Zeus or a Wakespeed as the next regulator choice.
__________________
MV TUGAWAY
|
|
|
07-12-2024, 15:30
|
#55
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Annapolis, MD
Boat: Sabre 34-1 (sold) and Saga 43
Posts: 2,794
|
Re: The external regulator we've all been waiting for!
Quote:
Originally Posted by eheffa
How do you get your Balmar regulators to respond to SOC instead of simple battery Voltage as their "time to change mode" indicator?
My Balmar regulator's programming is entirely dependent on Voltage and Timer type parameters which work quite poorly (read inappropriately) with a LFP house bank.
I elected to charge my LFP house bank via 2 x Orion-XS DCDC chargers for now but when the Balmar bites the dust, I would, without hesitation, go for the Zeus or a Wakespeed as the next regulator choice.
|
My LFP batteries are sitting in a shipping box in my shop, so I'm still in a theoretical world. But I intend to set the voltages "low" to ensure it's all shut off before any issues (if I get the bank to 98% or something, that's fine). In addition, my BMS will disable the Balmar if needed -- and that's a hard shutdown on the brown wire.
I've actually sat down with MaineSail's Balmar setup sheet and sketched out my settings, and feel confident on them. I'll dig it out and share my thoughts, but we are late for leaving to the Club Christmas party so can't right now.
|
|
|
07-12-2024, 15:55
|
#56
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Victoria, BC Canada
Boat: Nordic Tug 37
Posts: 150
|
Re: The external regulator we've all been waiting for!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingharry
My LFP batteries are sitting in a shipping box in my shop, so I'm still in a theoretical world. But I intend to set the voltages "low" to ensure it's all shut off before any issues (if I get the bank to 98% or something, that's fine). In addition, my BMS will disable the Balmar if needed -- and that's a hard shutdown on the brown wire.
I've actually sat down with MaineSail's Balmar setup sheet and sketched out my settings, and feel confident on them. I'll dig it out and share my thoughts, but we are late for leaving to the Club Christmas party so can't right now.
|
Well, I would respectfully suggest that your hopes that the Balmars will be able to properly and optimally charge your new LFP bank are unlikely to be fulfilled.
Voltage is a very poor measure of SOC for LFP batteries. Even with the relatively more sophisticated Orion DC-DC chargers connected to a proper Victron shunt, they need frequent user oversight and tweaking of the voltage thresholds for Bulk, Absorption and float parameters to keep them charging appropriately. (Sadly, they too do not take charge parameters from the SOC...)
In contrast to the Orion chargers, the Zeus regulator should allow much more appropriate charging to maximize alternator output until a predetermined SOC is reached; all the time monitoring alternator temps and output in order to not be overtaxing the alternator.
The Zeus would, IMHO, be worth every penny.
I have the ability to supplement my 160A alternator output (via the 2 x 50A Orions), with another ~250+ amps of charging via the generator and solar array so have other options when the 960Ah house bank is drawn well down; but, if I were more dependent on my main engine for charging, I would definitely get a SOC-savvy regulator. (My bet would be to go with the Zeus over the Wakespeed.)
What kept me from opting for a Zeus regulator charging the LFP house bank directly was that I did not see that I could configure the system to protect me from a sudden BMS Charging-MOSFET shutdown. Having a lead acid bank in direct continuity with the alternator meant that a sudden MOSFET shutdown would not cook the alternator.
I expect that the Canbus / NMEA 2000 options will improve steadily over the next while and when I'm ready to upgrade to the Zeus, these communication protocols would allow more protection against burning out the alternator or risking a sudden power failure and the dreaded "Dark Boat".
__________________
MV TUGAWAY
|
|
|
08-12-2024, 01:20
|
#57
|
Registered User
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Whangarei
Boat: Bavaria 38 Cruiser, 12meters, 2004
Posts: 233
|
Re: The external regulator we've all been waiting for!
RE: "What kept me from opting for a Zeus regulator charging the LFP house bank directly was that I did not see that I could configure the system to protect me from a sudden BMS Charging-MOSFET shutdown. Having a lead acid bank in direct continuity with the alternator meant that a sudden MOSFET shutdown would not cook the alternator."
For around a hundred bucks I thought the alternator protector was a worthwhile piece of kit, easy to put in, wire up and then have no concerns about alternator burn up because of the Lithium disconnect issue... A thing I had with the Balmar's was by various accounts, the very outdated way they were set up, with dip switches and so forth. Bluetooth makes that side of it very convenient with the Zeus.
But I do agree re the "shiny new toy" side of it, I am susceptible....
|
|
|
08-12-2024, 05:49
|
#58
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Annapolis, MD
Boat: Sabre 34-1 (sold) and Saga 43
Posts: 2,794
|
Re: The external regulator we've all been waiting for!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingharry
My LFP batteries are sitting in a shipping box in my shop, so I'm still in a theoretical world. But I intend to set the voltages "low" to ensure it's all shut off before any issues (if I get the bank to 98% or something, that's fine). In addition, my BMS will disable the Balmar if needed -- and that's a hard shutdown on the brown wire.
I've actually sat down with MaineSail's Balmar setup sheet and sketched out my settings, and feel confident on them. I'll dig it out and share my thoughts, but we are late for leaving to the Club Christmas party so can't right now.
|
So, I've pulled out my notes.
First, I needed some high-end voltage considerations. The charge curve is very flat for most of the profile, and all that is really needed is to ensure that the alternator voltage is measurably over that voltage to ensure that effective charging occurs. Then, we need to know some data points.
These data come from various online tests/reports/etc.
* 95% - 3.3V -> 13.2V
* 97% - 3.3V -> 13.2V
* 99% - 3.4V -> 13.6V
* 100% - 3.5V -> 14.0V
The Eve data sheet has a few more data points.
* End of Charge - 3.65V -> 14.65V
* Max Charge - 3.8 -> 15.2V
It is also worth noting that I have a ~900Ah bank, and can realistically not maintain a charge rate over 150A. That means that I am charging at 150/900, or 17%/hour or .2% per minute, or 5 minutes to charge 1%.
So, here's my Balmar settings.
Bulk Voltage -- 14.0V
Bulk Time -- .2H, or 12 minutes
Absorption Voltage 13.6V
Absorption Time --- .2H
Float Voltage -- 13.0V
Float Time -- 6H
Here's what will (should) happen.
Turns on, starts charging at Absorption. This is charging to 100% (but given voltage losses and the fact that even LFP has a "charging voltage overage," it really is probably closer to 99%. Given that EVE specifies an "end of charge" of 14.65, I may end up raising my absorption voltage to 14.3 or 14.4. It gets to 100%, but because 14.0 is still 100%, it doesn't overcharge. Then after 12 minutes at 14.0, it backs off to a setting of 13.6 (which basically turns it off). After another 12 minutes, it backs down to 13.0 (truly off) for the next 6 hours. So essentially, I have turned it into a single-stage regulator -- set at 14.0 until reached, then shut off. Note that I have no desire for my alternator to REALLY reach 100%, if it only reaches 90 or 95%, that's no worry. My intention is for solar to get me to 100% on a fairly regular basis, and the only real reason to want to get to 100% is to reset the SOC meters.
Of course, my BMS will be monitoring individual cells for any outlier, and also for any anomalies in the regulator performance, and can shut down the regulator directly if necessary.
Even a ~2000 year Balmar does all that is needed. Note that charge sources are never based on SOC, but always on voltage. And even LFP have a fully charged voltage to reach, where all charge sources shut down.
|
|
|
08-12-2024, 08:13
|
#59
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Victoria, BC Canada
Boat: Nordic Tug 37
Posts: 150
|
Re: The external regulator we've all been waiting for!
Yes, thanks for pointing that out Kerry1. An alternator protection device would be almost essential but I understood it to not be always reliable….
At the time of my installation & planning, it wasn’t clear to me how much risk there would be of a sudden MOSFET shutdown. After almost a year of cruising, I have a lot more confidence in the reliability of the BMS systems in my 2 Epoch 460 Ah batteries and suspect that with appropriate charging parameters and well controlled charging voltages, that a sudden MOSFET shutdown underway would be extremely unlikely.
If I were to do it again, I would have the Zeus charging the LFP directly and use the DCDC chargers to service the Start & Thruster banks. (Hmmm. I feel a project tempting me…)
& yes, with an alternator protection device in place.
__________________
MV TUGAWAY
|
|
|
08-12-2024, 08:23
|
#60
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Victoria, BC Canada
Boat: Nordic Tug 37
Posts: 150
|
Re: The external regulator we've all been waiting for!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingharry
So, I've pulled out my notes.
First, I needed some high-end voltage considerations. The charge curve is very flat for most of the profile, and all that is really needed is to ensure that the alternator voltage is measurably over that voltage to ensure that effective charging occurs. Then, we need to know some data points.
These data come from various online tests/reports/etc.
* 95% - 3.3V -> 13.2V
* 97% - 3.3V -> 13.2V
* 99% - 3.4V -> 13.6V
* 100% - 3.5V -> 14.0V
The Eve data sheet has a few more data points.
* End of Charge - 3.65V -> 14.65V
* Max Charge - 3.8 -> 15.2V
It is also worth noting that I have a ~900Ah bank, and can realistically not maintain a charge rate over 150A. That means that I am charging at 150/900, or 17%/hour or .2% per minute, or 5 minutes to charge 1%.
So, here's my Balmar settings.
Bulk Voltage -- 14.0V
Bulk Time -- .2H, or 12 minutes
Absorption Voltage 13.6V
Absorption Time --- .2H
Float Voltage -- 13.0V
Float Time -- 6H
Here's what will (should) happen.
Turns on, starts charging at Absorption. This is charging to 100% (but given voltage losses and the fact that even LFP has a "charging voltage overage," it really is probably closer to 99%. Given that EVE specifies an "end of charge" of 14.65, I may end up raising my absorption voltage to 14.3 or 14.4. It gets to 100%, but because 14.0 is still 100%, it doesn't overcharge. Then after 12 minutes at 14.0, it backs off to a setting of 13.6 (which basically turns it off). After another 12 minutes, it backs down to 13.0 (truly off) for the next 6 hours. So essentially, I have turned it into a single-stage regulator -- set at 14.0 until reached, then shut off. Note that I have no desire for my alternator to REALLY reach 100%, if it only reaches 90 or 95%, that's no worry. My intention is for solar to get me to 100% on a fairly regular basis, and the only real reason to want to get to 100% is to reset the SOC meters.
Of course, my BMS will be monitoring individual cells for any outlier, and also for any anomalies in the regulator performance, and can shut down the regulator directly if necessary.
Even a ~2000 year Balmar does all that is needed. Note that charge sources are never based on SOC, but always on voltage. And even LFP have a fully charged voltage to reach, where all charge sources shut down.
|
Well…
Those voltage charging parameters would not keep my house bank in a decent state of charge; but you can play with your own settings, hunkered down in the engine room with the good old magnetic screwdriver and see what might work for you.
There is no way that the Balmar’s can come close to giving you the performance and a safety of a Zeus regulator.
IMO, The Zeus (or Wakespeed) regulators are designed to fill a very specific need and easily justify the cost.
|
|
|
 |
|
Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
Display Modes |
Rate This Thread |
Linear Mode
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Advertise Here
Recent Discussions |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Vendor Spotlight |
|
|