Lead Carbon Batteries ??? help advice???

[john61ct]

Then your best bet is likely Chinese.

I hear Full River is OK.

There is a scam-sounding lead crystal, "as good as lithium", also marketed in South Africa, that may be a decent AGM, but don't believe their cycling lifetime or 80% DoD claims.

Maybe Lifeline is sold there? Along with Odyssey & Northstar, best in the NA market.

Do you need sealed? Top FLA like Rolls Surette lasts longer.

You'll be best off starting a thread titled something like

"Best deep cycle brands in Australian market?" not just here but Aussie - specific forums.

The caravanners one, watch out for user AGM, not impartial.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I'd do it in a flash, but as I posted above, the Firefly units don't seem to be sold in Oz, and the shipping from India for my three units was over 600 USD.

Makes then kinda dear, and then there is a significant delay between disbursement of cash and delivery... and I've heard that some fail from infant mortality, and if that happens, an Ozite is really screwed. wish it were different...

Jim

Firefly is not unique in the use of carbon for the anode in an AGM or other lead acid battery. There are a number of them and they all work on the same principal, with the same benefit of almost no sulphation, even when partially recharged on a continuous basis. The configuration of the variant that looks like it has the best independent testing was invented in Oz by your state run CSIRO. They're sold under different brand names, but you might check them out. In the meantime, here's some links of relevance, one of which contains the independent test results comparing different chemistries, including lead carbon.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/new_lead_acid_systems

https://seekingalpha.com/article/115257-lead-carbon-a-game-changer-for-alternative-energy-storage

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UltraBattery

[olaf hart]

Don’t seem to be any ultra batteries on the market though..

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by olaf hart

Don’t seem to be any ultra batteries on the market though..

http://ultrabattery.com/partners/

Looks like the technology had been licensed to others. Makes sense, given it was developed with taxpayer$. Looks like you can buy them from East Penn in the US, but o don't know about Oz.

My point is that using carbon for the anode or done by different manufacturers, albeit with differing methods of incorporation of the carbon. Firefly has one that looks good, and there are others to choose from. Whether the others are as good or not, I don't know, but there is no chemical reason why they would not be and of the variants, the Ultra technology seems to have the most research behind it.

[Captain Puget]

I’m 3 years in on a 3 x house bank Firefly system.

Absolutely no issues so far. Charging sources - solar, Balmar 120a alternator and dock .

3+ days on the hook, no problem and without scrimping.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Delfin

Firefly is not unique in the use of carbon for the anode in an AGM or other lead acid battery. There are a number of them and they all work on the same principal, with the same benefit of almost no sulphation, even when partially recharged on a continuous basis.

100% false.

Every site you cite there is chockablock full of falsehoods and over-generalizations.

The invention of Firefly's technology was a radical innovation and is still unique in the industry.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Delfin

Firefly is not unique in the use of carbon for the anode in an AGM or other lead acid battery. There are a number of them and they all work on the same principal, with the same benefit of almost no sulphation, even when partially recharged on a continuous basis.

Originally Posted by john61ct

100% false.

If and when you ever cite your qualifications for making declarative statements like this as has been requested numerous times by numerous forum members, such statements might be taken seriously. You haven't/won't/can't, so not so much.

As noted, the use of carbon in the anode of a lead acid battery has many variants, one of which is Firefly's. It's performance seems very good, as do other examples of the same use of carbon in different ways, so not only is what I stated not 100% false, it is 100% true. You seem very adept at gaining knowledge from Google to present as your personal experience, so perhaps use Google to see how many different manufacturers are, as I said, using carbon in the anode to largely eliminate sulphation.

Originally Posted by john61ct

Every site you site there is chockablock full of falsehoods and over-generalizations.

It would be fruitless to ask you to back up your statement with actual facts. However, you have also said that all manufacturers of Lithium batteries are conspiring to sabotage their products with bad maintenance advice so that people will buy more of them after they fail. Since statements like this seem delusional, IMO they can be ignored.

Originally Posted by john61ct

The invention of Firefly's technology was a radical innovation and is still unique in the industry.

Never said it wasn't unique, however, it is simply a unique way of using carbon as an anode - something many other manufacturers are doing to accomplish the same objective, even if you seem to be unaware of them.

[john61ct]

Something they are doing supposedly to **try** to accomplish that goal.

Or more accurately, using for marketing purposes to sell more batteries.

Carbon is just an element, more accurately a word. Its presence does not mean its usage is the same, or even similar.

No other lead battery actually performs as Firefly does wrt resisting PSOC abuse.

I am not advocating anyone buy Firefly BTW, it is certainly cheaper

in $ / AH / year

to just get the cheapest true deep cycling like Duracell / Deka flooded GCs and replace them more frequently.

If you have a big expensive bank, you should certainly strive to fix the cause of the PSOC problem as a top priority.

And wrt LFP, you are twisting my words atrociously, but I won't argue that here. Your doing so certainly shows you have an axe to grind, other than helping fellow members.

[OceanPlanet]

FWIW, Firefly's big thing is carbon FOAM, rather than carbon doping of the neg. plates, or other variations of adding carbon. The carbon foam is a unique material, rather difficult to make. Took them a long while to get the process ironed out.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Something they are doing supposedly to **try** to accomplish that goal.

Or more accurately, using for marketing purposes to sell more batteries.

Carbon is just an element, more accurately a word. Its presence does not mean its usage is the same, or even similar.

No other lead battery actually performs as Firefly does wrt resisting PSOC abuse.

I am not advocating anyone buy Firefly BTW, it is certainly cheaper

in $ / AH / year

to just get the cheapest true deep cycling like Duracell / Deka flooded GCs and replace them more frequently.

If you have a big expensive bank, you should certainly strive to fix the cause of the PSOC problem as a top priority.

And wrt LFP, you are twisting my words atrociously, but I won't argue that here. Your doing so certainly shows you have an axe to grind, other than helping fellow members.

I take it from this that you no longer think that my statement that other manufacturers are using carbon in the anode of their batteries is 100% false, but now 100% true. Progress.

However, your assertion that other manufacturers are only "trying" to reduce PSOC issues by incorporating carbon into the anode, and that "no other battery" other than Firefly has successfully done so is simply wrong. The CSIRO certainly succeeded, and have licensed their approach to others, who are utilizing it and showing test results indicating significant success.

Helping other forum members sometimes means correcting declarative statements made as facts by people who pose as experts, but are prone to making demonstrably false statements with never a correction, even when shown to be upside down in their assertions.

Firefly looks like a great option to address PSoC issues. As do others with quite a lot of research behind them, as well as widespread use in the marketplace.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by OceanPlanet

FWIW, Firefly's big thing is carbon FOAM, rather than carbon doping of the neg. plates, or other variations of adding carbon. The carbon foam is a unique material, rather difficult to make. Took them a long while to get the process ironed out.

Quite true, Bruce, and it appears that the foam has the effect of significantly increasing the acceptance rate during charging of the batteries due to increased surface area of the anode, which can certainly be useful, since other types using carbon seem like they limit the charge rate to .3C or so. Whether that is a practical disadvantage on a particular boat would depend on the boat. What doesn't seem to be the case is that variations using carbon in other configurations have less of an ability to deal with PSoC usage than Firefly. The data I've seen, some of which is done by independent labs like Sandia labs, seems to suggest that there isn't anything particularly special about carbon foam with regard to increasing cycles in PSoC situations. Do you feel differently or is there data suggesting there is a difference?

As I said, Firefly looks like a great option and it has the advantage that it has an interest in the marine market, and you backing it.

[OceanPlanet]

Originally Posted by Delfin

Quite true, Bruce, and it appears that the foam has the effect of significantly increasing the acceptance rate during charging of the batteries due to increased surface area of the anode, which can certainly be useful, since other types using carbon seem like they limit the charge rate to .3C or so. Whether that is a practical disadvantage on a particular boat would depend on the boat. What doesn't seem to be the case is that variations using carbon in other configurations have less of an ability to deal with PSoC usage than Firefly. The data I've seen, some of which is done by independent labs like Sandia labs, seems to suggest that there isn't anything particularly special about carbon foam with regard to increasing cycles in PSoC situations. Do you feel differently or is there data suggesting there is a difference?

As I said, Firefly looks like a great option and it has the advantage that it has an interest in the marine market, and you backing it.

Good question about increasing PSOC cycles. What we know is that even after extended PSOC use (as per Mainesail's PSOC test regime) and long-term testing by Nigel Calder (including a full winter stored at low SOC), that the full capacity can be recovered afterwards. Perhaps some cycle life is lost, perhaps not, it's hard to say without a really long term test that could take years....

[olaf hart]

Whenever I look up Firefly they seem to be on back order or not available...

[OceanPlanet]

Originally Posted by olaf hart

Whenever I look up Firefly they seem to be on back order or not available...

No one is more disappointed in the slow production than we are...:-(

However the speed is picking up. We (and all our distributors) are hopeful that Firefly will continue to ramp up. Where are you located? Some large shipments recently went to Coastal Climate control (MD), and Fisheries Supply (WA). There may be some left at those locations. We just landed 54x G31's in Maine and are working through our customer waiting lists. Also we have some of the 450A x 4V left...which are perhaps even better than the 12V G31's.

[olaf hart]

I am currently visiting the kids in Denver, but live in Tasmania and sail there and Queensland.

I also spent a couple of summers on the water recently in the PNW.

Fisheries site yesterday said they are on back order.

Have two boats in Oz, both with AGM banks, so watching this space for replacement options in the future.

Seems to me that lead carbon batteries are currently at the replacement “Sweet spot” if I want to keep my existing charge systems. I also like to use moorings, not marinas, so it makes sense to have a system that maximises solar and likes to stay at full state of charge.