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Old 19-11-2018, 10:45   #31
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Re: Lead Carbon Batteries ??? help advice???

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Originally Posted by olaf hart View Post
I am currently visiting the kids in Denver, but live in Tasmania and sail there and Queensland.

I also spent a couple of summers on the water recently in the PNW.

Fisheries site yesterday said they are on back order.

Have two boats in Oz, both with AGM banks, so watching this space for replacement options in the future.

Seems to me that lead carbon batteries are currently at the replacement “Sweet spot” if I want to keep my existing charge systems. I also like to use moorings, not marinas, so it makes sense to have a system that maximises solar and likes to stay at full state of charge.
If you can have enough solar to top up the batteries often, then you can use much less expensive batteries... The Firefly are really worth the extra $ for those applications that may have extended periods at PSOC.
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Old 19-11-2018, 10:48   #32
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Re: Lead Carbon Batteries ??? help advice???

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I take it from this that you no longer think that my statement that other manufacturers are using carbon in the anode of their batteries is 100% false, but now 100% true..
No, I am saying that has zero to do with Firefly, any more than if others' case used the same plastic.

If genuine new innovations do come along, I'd like to see real-world test results published by competent and disinterested individuals I trust?
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Old 19-11-2018, 10:56   #33
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Re: Lead Carbon Batteries ??? help advice???

Bruce, do you know if there are any makers of a separate special "Lead Carbon" type battery selling into the NA or Euro markets?

Is it like the "Lead Crystal" phenomenon, that only reached the southern hemisphere?

Or is it something similar to Trojan's use of "Smart Carbon" doping?
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Old 19-11-2018, 11:22   #34
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Re: Lead Carbon Batteries ??? help advice???

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Bruce, do you know if there are any makers of a separate special "Lead Carbon" type battery selling into the NA or Euro markets?

Is it like the "Lead Crystal" phenomenon, that only reached the southern hemisphere?

Or is it something similar to Trojan's use of "Smart Carbon" doping?
Haven't seen any "carbon" versions that appear to be the level of Firefly. So I think it's the latter. Mainesail tested the Northstar "PSOC" with added carbon version a while back, it still lost capacity in his PSOC test.
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Old 19-11-2018, 11:50   #35
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Re: Lead Carbon Batteries ??? help advice???

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If you can have enough solar to top up the batteries often, then you can use much less expensive batteries... The Firefly are really worth the extra $ for those applications that may have extended periods at PSOC.
Thanks, I agree with you, it’s just replacing AGM’s in Oz isn’t cheap, and it is worth looking a step up as we sometimes go up the Oz east coast, and like to use the fridge and autopilot.

If we get over twice the life from Carbon batteries we are ahead on cost.

We had a Tartan 30 with an icebox in the PNW for a few years, it was in the water all summer but up there you generally use marinas and motor as much as sail.

I put in two Dyno SLA batteries when we bought the boat, they were great for that sort of use, but that is not how we do things down Tassie way.

Just a plug for Dyno, we visited the factory to pick them up, great price, very well made and supported.
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Old 19-11-2018, 18:11   #36
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Re: Lead Carbon Batteries ??? help advice???

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Haven't seen any "carbon" versions that appear to be the level of Firefly. So I think it's the latter. Mainesail tested the Northstar "PSOC" with added carbon version a while back, it still lost capacity in his PSOC test.
Just curious, but I gather you haven't run across the Ultra variations - Narada in Oz and East Penn elsewhere through Ecoult?

The data in this abstract comes from a DOE funded study conducted by Sandia and has some interesting data:

https://www.sandia.gov/ess-ssl/EESAT...age_Device.pdf

The Oz version - Narada - is commercially available in boat sizes, but in NA, Japan, etc. most of the projects using these seem to be quite large, or focused on EV.
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Old 20-11-2018, 09:33   #37
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Re: Lead Carbon Batteries ??? help advice???

East Penn (Deka) is a very well respected maker here in NA, specifically for their FLA line, which will last much longer under more abusive conditions than even the best AGM at 5x the price.

They also make excellent GEL batts, priced lower than Sonnenschein.

However their AGMs do not have a great rep, not even when properly coddled, not really even within the definition of true deep cycling, certainly not compared to Lifeline, Odyssey and Northstar, (nor Firefly setting aside their unique PSOC handling)

I suppose it is possible their newer lines have not been well tested yet out in the community, that does usually take a few years.
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Old 20-11-2018, 09:38   #38
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Re: Lead Carbon Batteries ??? help advice???

Is Narada actually manufactured in Oz?
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Old 20-11-2018, 09:51   #39
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Re: Lead Carbon Batteries ??? help advice???

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Is Narada actually manufactured in Oz?
Nothing is manufactured in Oz...
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Old 20-11-2018, 19:58   #40
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Re: Lead Carbon Batteries ??? help advice???

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Is Narada actually manufactured in Oz?
Nope, apparently in China.

I've been trying to get a quote for a few days now... they are not very good communicators (speaking of Aussie Batteries, the Aussie distributer for Narada).

MY own feeling is if they are hard to get responses from when they are trying o sell something, the odds ain't good for post sale service!

Jim
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Old 20-11-2018, 20:07   #41
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Re: Lead Carbon Batteries ??? help advice???

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Nope, apparently in China.

I've been trying to get a quote for a few days now... they are not very good communicators (speaking of Aussie Batteries, the Aussie distributer for Narada).

MY own feeling is if they are hard to get responses from when they are trying o sell something, the odds ain't good for post sale service!

Jim
Jim, let us know when you get a price. I'd be very curious. Narada is quite a large company, based in China. The Ossie entity is either a sub, or a stocking dealer. Not sure which. However, whomever is making these batteries, they are doing so under license from the CSIRO, who have the patents on their carbon anode process.

http://en.naradapower.com/index.php/about/company
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Old 20-11-2018, 20:20   #42
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Re: Lead Carbon Batteries ??? help advice???

MegaPower in Newtown MA is their US rep.

Can only see references to UPS and auto batteries from here, rest is PR about financial dealings.
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Old 21-11-2018, 14:48   #43
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Re: Lead Carbon Batteries ??? help advice???

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Jim, let us know when you get a price. I'd be very curious. Narada is quite a large company, based in China. The Ossie entity is either a sub, or a stocking dealer. Not sure which. However, whomever is making these batteries, they are doing so under license from the CSIRO, who have the patents on their carbon anode process.

http://en.naradapower.com/index.php/about/company
OK, finally got a quote, but I'm not really sure what it is for!

After 3 emails and one telephone conversation with their rep, I still don't have any concrete info about their 12 volt 480 ah battery that I am interested in. They show it in their website, but without any specific info, like dimensions. They keep sending me data sheets for individual cells.

So, bottom line is 2730 AUD delivered to Church Point NSW (and the shipping is ~260 AUD(. Apparently this is for 6 2v cells, not an assembled battery which is what the site implies is available.

I don't think I am interested.

Jim
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Old 23-11-2018, 09:13   #44
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Re: Lead Carbon Batteries ??? help advice???

I installed 4 Firefly carbon foam batteries two years ago and they’ve been fantastic. I’m a livesboard and never plug in. I only get juice from my 350 watt solar panel and my 100 amp alternator when I’m moving. My batteries rarely drop below 85 percent but I’ve driven them below 50 percent without any apparent problems.
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Old 23-11-2018, 10:08   #45
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Re: Lead Carbon Batteries ??? help advice???

We have a new Firefly 24 volt, 450 AH installation. Too soon to pass judgement but looks good so far.
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