Honda 2000 built in.

[a64pilot]

A March air conditioner water pump uses an amp or two at most at 120VAC.
However a 2000 Honda is only a 13 amp continuous machine, so take a couple of amps worst case for a water pump, and a couple of amps for a large squirrel cage blower to remove hot air and your down to a 9 amp machine, or you have lost 1/3 generator capacity however you want to look at it.
You have also spent a lot of money

Don’t forget you need to change the oil every 100 hours or less, and the way it’s done on a Honda is to tip it to the side and let it run out of the fill port. So I’d assume that means removal from the box to accomplish that, same for the inevitable carburetor cleaning.

[a64pilot]

Liquid cooling is heavy, complex and expensive, adds another system to break and maintain, and it’s not really liquid cooling. The liquid is just a transfer medium to the air.
A portable generator would have to have a radiator and a fan, so not much is accomplished over air cooling, same amount of heat still has to be dumped into the air.

Liquid cooling has advantages of course, but apparently Honda etc don’t need it.

[smj]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

A March air conditioner water pump uses an amp or two at most at 120VAC.
However a 2000 Honda is only a 13 amp continuous machine, so take a couple of amps worst case for a water pump, and a couple of amps for a large squirrel cage blower to remove hot air and your down to a 9 amp machine, or you have lost 1/3 generator capacity however you want to look at it.
You have also spent a lot of money

Don’t forget you need to change the oil every 100 hours or less, and the way it’s done on a Honda is to tip it to the side and let it run out of the fill port. So I’d assume that means removal from the box to accomplish that, same for the inevitable carburetor cleaning.

The Honda 2000 is light so no problem removing it from a box. Strangely enough we’ve owned the Honda 2000 for over 10 years and never had to clean a carb. Must be our clean living!

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Best use I think of the unregulated 12v outlet if your determined to use it is to make it run the ventilation fan.
I think your grossly underestimating the amount of heat there is to remove, this blower is used on my Nexgen, and it’s a water cooled engine and exhaust, so only the generator is air cooled and it still get the air so hot that it will collapse a blower hose.
I had to use high temp aircraft SCAT hose which is also smooth bore so it flows lots more air.
https://www.westmarine.com/jabsco--1...12_362_001_506

The Honda is a smaller 2.2 as opposed to 3.5, but it’s engine is also air cooled, and even more so the exhaust muffler is air cooled.
I would imagine the Honda gives off significantly more heat than my Nexgen, and of course that heat has to be removed.

That fan is only 150 CFM. My guess is you would need 250 CFM and if you go with 12V that is about 13 amps roughly.

However if you go with 12V it should also of course function as a blower to remove explosive gases, but then you need to run it from the bank.
Surely the 12v circuit isn’t “free” power, it would I think come off of the generators power.

Being above deck of course surely makes it safer, but as it’s no longer a portable I believe you will still need to meet regs, ones that I can think of are.
Flame arrestor, that is just a screen on the intake and may can be purchased. Or fit a K&N airfilter, they are certified as a flame arrestor, I know this from my Jet Ski days.
Engine and generator be ignition protected, it’s still in an enclosed space. Maybe Honda has certified it as so? If not I don’t believe this is one you can pass.
Fuel system? I know if below decks you need to at least change fuel hoses, above deck in an enclosed space? I don’t know.
Exhaust in my opinion needs an insulated wrap, probably want to do that just to keep more heat out of the box anyway.

I think Franzisca’s way is the most logical, find a nice box, leave the top open when you run it.
Sure solves a lot of problems

actually the little inverter generators produce quite a bit less heat due to them being actually a small engine turning a multi pole alternator that is run through an inverter to produce the usa how AC power vs your beaten which actually uses a low rpm generator head coupled to the motor.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by newhaul

actually the little inverter generators produce quite a bit less heat due to them being actually a small engine turning a multi pole alternator that is run through an inverter to produce the usa how AC power vs your beaten which actually uses a low rpm generator head coupled to the motor.

I don’t believe much heat comes from the generator on a Honda and presumably any suitcase generator, however the engine and in particular that large flat muffler sitting right in the airflow, dumps a tremendous amount of heat, then add whatever heat does come from the generator.

Typical built in generator with a sound shield has a water cooled engine and a water cooled exhaust, so all the heat is just generator heat.

That is why I think a Honda dumps more heat into its cooling air than a typical marine generator, because there is no other cooling, it’s all air cooled.

Just means that if you want to put it in an enclosure similar to a built in’s sound shield, you’re going to have to have a rather large fan to get rid of all that heat is all, probably larger than a typical built in’s or heat build up will get you.

Only one who has done it has come forward, listen to her

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I don’t believe much heat comes from the generator on a Honda and presumably any suitcase generator, however the engine and in particular that large flat muffler sitting right in the airflow, dumps a tremendous amount of heat, then add whatever heat does come from the generator.

Typical built in generator with a sound shield has a water cooled engine and a water cooled exhaust, so all the heat is just generator heat.

That is why I think a Honda dumps more heat into its cooling air than a typical marine generator, because there is no other cooling, it’s all air cooled.

Just means that if you want to put it in an enclosure similar to a built in’s sound shield, you’re going to have to have a rather large fan to get rid of all that heat is all, probably larger than a typical built in’s or heat build up will get you.

Only one who has done it has come forward, listen to her

As to the enclosure causing any thermal issues well there are literally tens of thousands of air cooled generators in enclosures all over the united states now . Just look at the generators in the new to newer rv's
Onan has a real nice looking 2200 watt that is fully enclosed. Then mounted in a compartment on the vehicle.

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Our box is simple fiberglass, epoxy, plywood and some heat insulation.
Still due to the ventilation issue (our box can not be bigger) we take the cover off when running the genny.

Of course I respect Your real life test results.

However could it be that materials used Your construction of the box are not the best choice ?

That is why I proposed a list with several options of materials.
Compared Aluminum has the best capacity of heat transfer of all the options and with exposure of the large surface area +/- to the outside air circulation as used for the panels/cover of the box it should be able to be an element in combination with others to absorb some of the heat.
As a result there should be less demand on the other cooling methods -sources that are available for this task.
Also there is no energy requirement to take advantage of this option. That is why Aluminum is used as the first choice when it come to heat transfer.

I recommend again having a look at the video that shows Aluminum brazing. I know it is posible the less know method/material used because it usually requires a heavy and expensive machine to weld but with the method shown it is in reach for certain applications.

Of course Your choice of material is the best for fast DIY results but wood is known for it´s good capacity to prevent heat transfer.

Those basic principals should be used for all material considerations.
Therefore also all proposed comercial available boxes in plastic, CFC, etc. would not be the best choice.

[warrior 90]

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I don’t believe much heat comes from the generator on a Honda and presumably any suitcase generator, however the engine and in particular that large flat muffler sitting right in the airflow, dumps a tremendous amount of heat, then add whatever heat does come from the generator.
Typical built in generator with a sound shield has a water cooled engine and a water cooled exhaust, so all the heat is just generator heat.
That is why I think a Honda dumps more heat into its cooling air than a typical marine generator, because there is no other cooling, it’s all air cooled.
Just means that if you want to put it in an enclosure similar to a built in’s sound shield, you’re going to have to have a rather large fan to get rid of all that heat is all, probably larger than a typical built in’s or heat build up will get you.
Only one who has done it has come forward, listen to her

Originally Posted by newhaul

As to the enclosure causing any thermal issues well there are literally tens of thousands of air cooled generators in enclosures all over the united states now . Just look at the generators in the new to newer rv's
Onan has a real nice looking 2200 watt that is fully enclosed. Then mounted in a compartment on the vehicle.

If liquid cooling is required my first choice would be oil cooling.
Oil filler cap is already there
Return line only requires a threaded hole in the easy accessible oil pan of the Honda Rx 120 engine and a heat exchanger with good air flow.

Yes, I was also playing with the idea of removing that big flat muffler/silencer and adding it to the permanent exhaust routing system.
Till here we are talking only about passive heat evacuation that does not require any energy.
Best... with adding quick connection to exhaust pipe of Gen to maintain PORTABILITY
I would not consider that as a mayor problem.... same as electric connection, Plug &PLAY.
It would only be required for big general maintenance and cleaning when removing Gen once in a while. For oil and spark plug, carb cleaning taking of the covers is sufficient.

In general I also believe that no such high temperatures exist in those little generators. They have a very efficient design of fan mounted to the fly wheel.
However we should take the sensitivity to heat of the inverter as a serious matter.

ONAN 22, NICE. will have a peek. Usually they know what they are doing. Maybe they have my crazy electric start option.

[warrior 90]

I was wondering if oil cooling in general is a positive modification ?

Of course a good cooling method.

But here is another advantage. With the size of the heat exchanger we also control the quantity of oil in the cooling system. This will allow us to extend the time of the service cycles.
They do the same in Frigo systems for reefer containers that usually have a Kubota engine. The only difference is a criminal inflated price for a bigger oil pan. Of course there is an internal oil pump while we would need an external oil pump and the tank would be our heat exchanger.

When return line of oil is connected to the lowest point of the oil pan also all the particles in the oil that usually are the cause for an oil change would allow an oil change with the electric pump

NO more messy turning Genni to the side and spilling oil all over and no more removing of Genni required for oil change

How much energy would we need for running an oil pump with sufficient capacity for cooling ?
Of course depends on Qty of oil in circulation and size of heat exchanger/oil cooler.

Might be good to use a better quality of oil as reach of best operating temp might take a little longer.

Yeah, electric oil temp sensor with alarm and automatic shut down could be used for control but too fancy for my taste ....... at least until test results require

The more I think about it.... I have no real data but would speculate the flexibility with oil cooling together with the high efficient fan on the crank shaft, removing the muffler for better air circulation and using aluminum for the panels of the box for better heat transfer ?

Of course pump and heat exchanger attached outside and direct to the big removable cover panel that is used for servicing oil of the Honda anyway

Could we do a visual oil level inspection on return line at height of supply line connection to engine with using a transparent hose knowing the heat exchanger/oil cooler is full ?

On top of all no big $$$$$ and easy DIY

What do You guys think ?
Hahaha, I think I am beginning to fall in Love


Could this sexy mix do the MAGIC for STAGE 3

Nº 2 Control of temperature to desired levels

Nº 7 Conformance with standards of portability YES
Nº 8 Safety YES


Looking better every day, RIGHT ?

What are the disadvantages ?
I think I will make this modification anyway.

I think with an explosion proof oil pump # 2 would even pass an ABYC inspection
Hahaha NO, I am not willing to pay a fortune for pushing papers.

Originally Posted by newhaul

As to the enclosure causing any thermal issues . Just look at the generators in the new to newer rv's
Onan has a real nice looking 2200 watt that is fully enclosed. Then mounted in a compartment on the vehicle.

Are we looking at the same animal ?
ONAN 2200/2500 W Portable GEN
https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect...or/p99264.html

Looking good, weight size, price... similar to Honda

ONAN_________________HONDA
Rated Watts 2200 Watts > 1800
Surge Watts 2500 Watts > 2200
Rated Amps 18.3 Amps > 15
Engine 98 CC > 121 CC

YES, more power but with smaller engine
BUT: No electric start, No companion configuration for upgrade to higher power demand.
For that I prefer the Honda with the best world wide service and back up. With RX 120 engine even better.

But then link shows PRODUCT DISCONTINUED
In Ref. of model continuity I also prefer Honda as my first choice.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

I understand you recommend AYBC rules and Guidelines, fine. No disagreement with from me.

We are entering into a technical discussion, so I will be use very specific terminology.

I recommend, that all vessel modifications be completed in compliance with "applicable marine standards" and "industry best practices".

For North America, the applicable marine standards will include those published by the ABYC (American Boating and Yachting Council).

As I live in North America, and have been trained and certified based on these standards, I will refer to them. (The "applicable marine standards" for other jurisdictions may have different provisions that I am not familiar with.)

As we have seen earlier in the thread, these are not laws, but the standards can carry the force of law.

It behooves every boat owner in North America, to ensure that all vessel modifications are in compliance with these standards.

If they are not, they may be cited as non-compliant in a survey or accident investigation, which could create vessel insurability difficulties, insurance claim rejection, and personal legal liability.

Under normal circumstances, if the boater has done nothing wrong, and some part of the vessel causes property damage or bodily injury, it would most likely the injured party would go after the manufacturer.

If a boater modifies their vessel from the original design, in such a way that the manufacturer never intended, the manufacturer can be off the hook, and the owner solely liable.

I think you disagree with Portable Gas Generators 'installed in' boats.

There needs to be a clear understanding of what is meant by "installed in".

A reasonable definition of "installed" would be a portable generator "attached to the vessel by means of fastening", and "installed in" to mean "installed" within some form of enclosure (which could be a part of the original vessel construction or any additional enclosure "installed" on the vessel.)

It is not that I "disagree" with Portable Gas Generators "installed in" boats.

I believe it would be difficult to do so, in a way that would be compliant with ABYC standards.

One of the underlying principles of compliance is the requirement to follow the manufacturers instructions, and all applicable ABYC standards.

I checked the Honda EU2200i instruction manual, and found...

Page 7, Generator Safety - Fire & Burn Hazards – Do not enclose the generator in any structure.
Page 8, Generator Safety – Refueling – Refuel only outdoors in a well ventilated area and on a level surface.
Page 18 – Features – Ground Terminal Neutral Floating –
Page 27 – For proper cooling, allow at least 1 m (3 ft) of empty space above and around the generator.
Page 70 – Emission control system information – Tampering and Altering – Removal or alteration of any part of intake, fuel, or exhaust systems.
Page 81 - Warranty – Exclusions – Damage resulting from exposure to sea water, or use in an application for which product is not designed.

My belief is that if one of these generators was put in an enclosure, for use in a marine application, and a problem arose, the manufacturer would claim the user made unauthorized modifications, and the product was never intended for that application, and the boater would be on the hook with respect to liability, if it was determined that the "installation" caused or contributed to the problem.

Beyond this, to be ABYC compliant, any new installation would have to meet all of the provisions of the standard ABYC A-27 - ALTERNATING CURRENT (AC) GENERATOR SETS, published 7/16

This ABYC standard, being 23 pages, references the following additional standards:

ABYC A-4, Fire Fighting Equipment
ABYC E-11, AC and DC Electrical Systems on Boats
ABYC H-2, Ventilation of Boats Using Gasoline
ABYC H-24, Gasoline Fuel Systems
ABYC H-33, Diesel Fuel Systems
ABYC P-1, Installation of Exhaust Systems for Propulsion and Auxiliary Engines
ABYC T-5, Safety Signs and Labels
ABYC TH-22, Educational Information About Carbon Monoxide

ASTM E145-68, Standard Specification for Gravity-Convection and Forced-Ventilation Ovens

33 CFR 183.590
40 CFR 1060

ANSI/IEEE 115, Test Procedure for Synchronous Machines

SAE J1191, High Tension Ignition Cable Assemblies – Marine
SAE J1223, Marine Carburetors and Fuel Injection Throttle Bodies
SAE J1294,Ignition Distributors – Marine
SAE J1527, Marine Fuel Hoses
SAE J1928, Devices Providing Backfire Flame Control for Gasoline
Engines in Marine Applications

UL 94, Flammability of Plastic Materials for Parts in Devices and Appliances
UL 514C, Non-metallic Outlet Boxes, Flush-device Boxes, and Covers
UL 746C, Polymeric Materials Used in Electrical Equipment Evaluations
UL 1111,Marine Carburetor Flame Arresters
UL 1120, Marine Engine Ignition Systems and Components

If the generator were modified to have a portable fuel tank then ABYC H-
25 PORTABLE MARINE GASOLINE FUEL SYSTEMS, would also apply.

Naturally, I can't go through all of these standards and render an opinion if any specific generator model is suitable or compliant for use "on" or "built in" to a boat.

Most boaters I see using a portable generator, are tied to a dock, and set the generator on land. In my opinion, it would be hard for the manufacturer to claim there is something about this use, that is "not as intended".

If the portable generator is operating while sitting on a boat, that's a little more tricky. The first thing I would do is contact the manufacturer to verify that was an "approved" or "suitable" application. Then go through the ABYC standards to see what applies, and if the generator is compliant as is, or needs to be modified. (I know at the very least, the floating ground issue needs to be addressed, per ABYC E11.)

As soon as one "installs" the generator on the boat, then pretty much all of these standards are going to apply, and as soon as one makes it "built in", there are many, many issues to address.

Far more than some have suggested in this thread.

For me to go through the standards to find out what would be needed to make the portable gas generator compliant would likely cost the client more than an equivalent marine diesel generator, let alone the cost of the modifications to the portable gas generator and/or vessel.

Now, when asked about portable gas generators, I explain the issues, and recommend my clients consider a diesel "marine" generator.

[Chotu]

Everything you need to know:

https://www.uscgboating.org/regulati...ENTILATION.pdf

Also, from the main USCG page: "While we encourage recreational boat owners to use the information for their benefit, compliance with the regulations is the responsibility of the boat manufacturers."

End of thread drift.

Note: Rod is making good suggestions. However, none of them are required by law of you. Only a for profit manufacturer is required to follow them.

Note:. Even if you are following the standards, they apply to installed gasoline engines that are electric start. The eu2000 is pull start. The Federal law (for manufacturers) says you can detect problems when you go to the machine to start it.

[Chotu]

And a copy/paste of the main points from the federal regulations for manufacturers of boats, should you choose to follow them. It's wise to follow them.

Note: A Honda eu2000 falls under "portable equipment" until you start connecting it to all sorts of stuff electrically, fuel wise, etc. But that since it is pull start, it isn't an issue just like the open flames in the galley aren't an issue.

However, Rod isn't wrong in suggesting people follow the regulations of ABYC. They are a good set of regs.


FEDERAL LAW:
183.610
(a) Each compartment in a boat that has a permanently installed gasoline engine with a cranking motor must:
(1) Be open to the atmosphere, or
(2) Be ventilated by an exhaust blower system.
Permanently installed with regard to an engine means that it is securely fastened to the boat’s structure and the necessary wiring, piping and controls are connected and secured to the boat in accordance with the applicable USCG regulations. See Title 33 CFR Part 183, Subpart I, Electrical Systems and Title 33 CFR Part 183, Subpart J, Fuel Systems. The use of the term “permanently installed” is to highlight that the engine is not portable or easily removed from the boat and to differentiate it from “portable equipment”.
The term gasoline engine with a cranking motor is used to indicate that the gasoline engine can be started from a location that is remote from the compartment where it is permanently installed. An engine without a cranking motor (starter) requires the presence of a person at the engine location in order to start the engine. Presumably, any dangerous conditions such as liquid fuel or vapors being present at the engine location would be detected by odor and/or sight and remedied before the engine is started.
This section of the regulation addresses boats that have a permanently installed engine with a cranking motor in a compartment. To comply with the regulation one of the following alternatives must be satisfied:
1. The compartment must be open to the atmosphere, as defined in 183.605.
2. There must be an exhaust blower system installed to ventilate the compartment in which the engine is installed. An exhaust blower system consists of one or more blowers with ductwork and terminal fittings attached to the ducts.
TO COMPLY WITH THE LAW

• Is there a gasoline engine permanently installed in the compartment?
• Does the gasoline engine have a cranking motor (starter)?
If you have answered NO to either of the above, see 182.620, Natural Ventilation.
If you have answered YES to both of the above, then you must answer YES to one of the following:
• Is the compartment open to the atmosphere? See 183.605 for requirement.
• Is there an exhaust blower system? See 183.610, (b) through (f), for requirements

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Everything you need to know:

https://www.uscgboating.org/regulati...ENTILATION.pdf

Also, from the main USCG page: "While we encourage recreational boat owners to use the information for their benefit, compliance with the regulations is the responsibility of the boat manufacturers."

End of thread drift.

Note: Rod is making good suggestions. However, none of them are required by law of you. Only a for profit manufacturer is required to follow them.

Note:. Even if you are following the standards, they apply to installed gasoline engines that are electric start. The eu2000 is pull start. The Federal law (for manufacturers) says you can detect problems when you go to the machine to start it.

Just got through 183.630 Standards for Natural Ventilation

Reading it seem like it is written for people that actually are sailing at least sometimes and not only for people that are sitting at the dock pushing a $$


It is not the definition I used the other day but I believe the spirits allow communication on good common ground and most of all allow will a fast response to prevent endless interruption of thread/topic oriented concepts and communication

THXs Chotu

[weavis]

Originally Posted by warrior 90

Just got through 183.630 Standards for Natural Ventilation


It is not the definition I used the other day but I believe that it will allow communication on good common ground and most of all allow will a fast response to prevent endless interruption of thread/topic oriented concepts and communication

THXs Chotu

I love positive people if only to say.. "they had a good heart" as they crashed and burned."

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Chotu

And a copy/paste of the main points from the federal regulations for manufacturers of boats, should you choose to follow them. It's wise to follow them.

Note: A Honda eu2000 falls under "portable equipment" until you start connecting it to all sorts of stuff electrically, fuel wise, etc. But that since it is pull start, it isn't an issue just like the open flames in the galley aren't an issue.


FEDERAL LAW:
183.610
(a) Each compartment in a boat that has a permanently installed gasoline engine with a cranking motor must:

(1) Be open to the atmosphere, or > YES

(2) Be ventilated by an exhaust blower system. > YES, is posible

Permanently installed with regard to an engine means that it is securely fastened to the boat’s structure and the necessary wiring, piping and controls are connected and secured to the boat in accordance with the applicable USCG regulations. See Title 33 CFR Part 183, Subpart I, Electrical Systems and Title 33 CFR Part 183, Subpart J, Fuel Systems. The use of the term “permanently installed” is to highlight that the engine is not portable or easily removed from the boat and to differentiate it from “portable equipment”.

AGREED

> ENGINE is Portable and can be removed at any given time.

> Is not required for functionality of boat

> Is not hard wired, bolted or in any way attached that would not comply with term portable

> HOWEVER, support systems for engine are permanent
> EXCEPT FUEL SUPPLY IS ALSO PORTABLE (recommend additional guideline for portable fuel storage)

The term gasoline engine with a cranking motor is used to indicate that the gasoline engine can be started from a location that is remote from the compartment where it is permanently installed.
> AGREED

An engine without a cranking motor (starter) requires the presence of a person at the engine location in order to start the engine. Presumably, any dangerous conditions such as liquid fuel or vapors being present at the engine location would be detected by odor and/or sight and remedied before the engine is started.
> CONDITIONS IDENTIFIED

This section of the regulation addresses boats that have a permanently installed engine with a cranking motor in a compartment. To comply with the regulation one of the following alternatives must be satisfied:

1. The compartment must be open to the atmosphere, as defined in 183.605.
> YES, BUT WILL CHECK FOR FURTHER DETAILS

2. There must be an exhaust blower system installed to ventilate the compartment in which the engine is installed. An exhaust blower system consists of one or more blowers with ductwork and terminal fittings attached to the ducts.
TO COMPLY WITH THE LAW

> YES, PENDING SPEC FOR APPLICATION

• Is there a gasoline engine permanently installed in the compartment?
> NO
• Does the gasoline engine have a cranking motor (starter)?
> YES

If you have answered NO to either of the above, see 182.620, Natural Ventilation.
> WILL FOLLOW UP PENDING PROGRESS OF PROJECT

If you have answered YES to both of the above, then you must answer YES to one of the following:

• Is the compartment open to the atmosphere? See 183.605 for requirement.
> YES, BUT WILL ADDRESS FOR FURTHER CONFIRMATION

• Is there an exhaust blower system? See 183.610, (b) through (f), for requirements
> YES, WILL BE INCORPORATED ANYWAY TO COMPLY WITH SAFETY MESURES

Please confirm procedure

YES, I like the terms and the clear, short and defined space it allows for interpretation ?
I think I can live with that

Or if worse case it won´t hurt to try

If not ? Well, then we figure it how to find a solution with..... hahaha a walk through the jungle.
After all we fly to the moon. So this should be a piece of cake.

Could You also provide support for guide regards other parts of Stage Nº 3 ?
Would be great.

Teamwork makes the Dreams work

Best Regards

THXs again