Electrical Panel replacement

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Jim Jones

Nolex, thanks for your input.

I didn't know of the implications of dual pole switching on an aluminium boat. Can you elaborate any further on it or point to some reading material on it?

Most marine circuit breakers are single pole only. This means that even when the circuit breaker is off the negative wire is energised. This greatly reduces the cost of components and the simplicity of wiring, but the protection against circuit overloads is reduced and the chance of stray current corrosion problems is increased compared to a dual pole circuit system.

Dual pole systems are rare in fibreglass boats, although some of the high quality boats use a dual pole system on some circuits such as the anchor winch and autopilot as these have the greatest risk of causing stray current problems and particularly for the anchor winch the reduction in fire risk is felt worth the extra expense.

Most of the better aluminium boats use a dual pole wiring system. It is possible to use a single pole system to save costs if you are prepared to live with the added risk of stray current problems and also the greater fire risk. All Garcia boats I have seen use a dual pole system although strangely they also all use untinned wire.

It would be a very backward step down in quality to wire your boat with a single pole electrical system. If you want to replace your switch panel consider the Din rail circuit breakers. These are easily replaceable and made by multiple manufacturers so further down the track there will not be the problem of failing circuit breakers with difficult or impossible replacement.

If you do want to keep your existing circuit board try and avoid switching loads using the circuit breakers. This is not practical for all circuits, but it will prolong the life of the existing circuit breakers which is important given their age and difficulty with replacement.

Below is a photo of my circuit board with din rail breakers that was fitted by KM boatbuilders:

[cal40john]

In one of your posts you say it will reduce wiring. The manual says it reduces wiring by having control modules near to where the equipment is. I see a 16 and a 12 breaker module. How many circuits are you planning? Unless you have a megayacht with sets of 12 breaker modules in odd corners of the yacht, I don't see that this reduces the wiring of a normal sailboat.

It does allow you to hide the breaker box somewhere else than at the panel, but out of the way is likely less accessible and harder to work on.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Most marine circuit breakers are single pole only. This means that even when the circuit breaker is off the negative wire is energised. This greatly reduces the cost of components and the simplicity of wiring, but the protection against circuit overloads is reduced and the chance of stray current corrosion problems is increased compared to a dual pole circuit system.



Dual pole systems are rare in fibreglass boats, although some of the high quality boats use a dual pole system on some circuits such as the anchor winch and autopilot as these have the greatest risk of causing stray current problems and particularly for the anchor winch the reduction in fire risk is felt worth the extra expense.



Most of the better aluminium boats use a dual pole wiring system. It is possible to use a single pole system to save costs if you are prepared to live with the added risk of stray current problems and also the greater fire risk. All Garcia boats I have seen use a dual pole system although strangely they also all use untinned wire.



It would be a very backward step down in quality to wire your boat with a single pole electrical system. If you want to replace your switch panel consider the Din rail circuit breakers. These are easily replaceable and made by multiple manufacturers so further down the track there will not be the problem of failing circuit breakers with difficult or impossible replacement.



If you do want to keep your existing circuit board try and avoid switching loads using the circuit breakers. This is not practical for all circuits, but it will prolong the life of the existing circuit breakers which is important given their age and difficulty with replacement.



Below is a photo of my circuit board with din rail breakers that was fitted by KM boatbuilders:

I have to respectfully push back on suggestion to go with double-pole breakers throughout the panel. Perhaps for high-load such as to the inverter (as noelex 77 states, though these loads including windlass and thruster are not run direct to a panel) but this is totally impractical - breakers are double-width so the panel is much larger - and unnecessary in a properly bonded boat, especially for DC loads. Common-ground DC systems are safely used in millions (billions?) of vehicles and vessels. There are known protocols to effectively control stray current that do not require interrupting the ground circuit - unlike the neutral in an AC circuit, the ground in DC is not "enegized" unless something is wrong. Makes marginally more sense in AC circuits where both load and neutral would be protected, but is a large expense of time, money, complexity, and space with little/no return for the OP.

No one has mentioned the Maretron TSM810C. OP, you may want to ping TrawlerForum, sister to CF. Several active owners use Maretron systems. I think you will find you need a lot of sensors to complete a system.

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

No one has mentioned the Maretron TSM810C. OP, you may want to ping TrawlerForum, sister to CF. Several active owners use Maretron systems. I think you will find you need a lot of sensors to complete a system.

Thanks for the heads up. Wil take a look there.

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

All Garcia boats I have seen use a dual pole system although strangely they also all use untinned wire.

Hmmm thats an interesting observation. Will check this out for sure. Is untinned going to be an issue on freshwater ?

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

I have to respectfully push back on suggestion to go with double-pole breakers throughout the panel. Perhaps for high-load such as to the inverter (as noelex 77 states, though these loads including windlass and thruster are not run direct to a panel) but this is totally impractical - breakers are double-width so the panel is much larger -

Using double pole breakers is the most common way of wiring aluminium boats. Look at the photo on post #1 of the OP’s electrical panel as fitted by the manufacturer, Garcia, they are all double pole breakers. So I have to disagree this is “totally impractical “.

The extra complexity and cost of double pole circuit breakers is not done for fun by the boat manufacturers it is done for sound electrical reasons.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Using double pole breakers is the most common way of wiring aluminium boats. Look at the photo on post #1 of the OP’s electrical panel as fitted by the manufacturer, Garcia, they are all double pole breakers. So I have to disagree this is “totally impractical “.

The extra complexity and cost of double pole circuit breakers is not done for fun by the boat manufacturers it is done for sound electrical reasons.

You're right - the OPs panel is indeed double pole breakers. I had not noticed that.

Depending on how add-on/DIY "upgrades" have been done, might make the most sense to either consolidate these add-ons to a separate fuse block that is switched to one of the breakers (see the Blue Sea version i posted upthread), or add another sub-panel. Regardless, there is probably a lot of clean-up that can be done without surgery and expense.

[goboatingnow]

Aluminium boat needs both custom bonding (In fact fully isolated zero bonding , and should in my view have a completely isolated dc system. The hull should never be part of the electrical system.

Double pole dc breakers are not mandatory but are advised

[tanton37]

For anyone who might be interested....including Jim Jones...I have a beautiful custom made panel in pristine condition that I am willing to sell for $500 USD plus shipping which is a a fraction of original cost and a great deal at only half a "boat buck". Location is in Ottawa, Canada.

****All revenues received will be reinvested/recycled into yet more boat stuff😊
Cheers, David SV Tomcat

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by tanton37

For anyone who might be interested....including Jim Jones...I have a beautiful custom made panel in pristine condition that I am willing to sell for $500 USD plus shipping which is a a fraction of original cost and a great deal at only half a "boat buck". Location is in Ottawa, Canada.

****All revenues received will be reinvested/recycled into yet more boat stuff😊
Cheers, David SV Tomcat

nice looking panel David.

Unfortunately as i have learnt in this thread i need to stick with dual pole breakers + I am 230v for AC.

where did you get your panel built ?

[mvweebles]

That panel would be at least $3k-$4k USD to reproduce. Total bargain for someone.

FYI to the seller: you may want to advertise the dimensions of thr panel

[goboatingnow]

Building a simple panel , need not be expensive , just don’t source anything from “ marine “ suppliers. Electrical breakers can be sourced through electronic component supply houses. Panels can be engraved by laser through a local source and easily self assembled.

Double pole dc breakers start at around $10 ( mouser.com )

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Building a simple panel , need not be expensive , just don’t source anything from “ marine “ suppliers. Electrical breakers can be sourced through electronic component supply houses. Panels can be engraved by laser through a local source and easily self assembled.

I have learnt a good deal via this thread.

I am now considering keeping my orig panel but rebuild it - ie, overhaul it.

I will need to source new dual pole breakers that fit - I was browsing the Paneltronics site last night and saw they have dual pole breakers .....

https://www.paneltronics.com/Electri...reakers&page=5

Not sure if those dual pole breakers will fit though. The pilot lights on the panel must be incandescent as this panel is circa 1987 - I dont think they had LED's back then? So replacement LED's are easy enough.

If I had this panel sandblasted then powder coated I could have the name of what the circuit breaker controls, laser etched onto the powder coat (i.e., if the sand blasting takes the metal back to a raw silver colour then the powder coat goes over the top then when laser etched the the raw silver colour is reversed through the colour of the powder coating).

Like wise the pilot light holes could be laser cut to enlarge them for the new LED's etc. I will need to measure the panel but I would like to get a Victron GX Touch 50 or 70 - depending on mounting space.

Perhaps I will need to make a sub board? Keep all the circuit breakers on the overhauled main panel and make a sub board/s to accommodate the monitors for the various tasks?

Lots of research to do on this.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Jones

Not sure if this is the right section of the forum for this or not, but there was nowhere obvious that an electrical question for a boat goes...even though it is not about batteries or solar.

I am going to undergo a refit and am looking at the electrical systems onboard.

The electrical panel is quite old. The boat was made in 1987 and it looks like the electrical panel is what it left the yard with. I would look to modernise the boat electrical system and this would (potentially) include rewiring the boat with a digital switching system.

Reasons for wanting to replace wiring is to be sure there is no wiring on the boat that may be in a dangerous condition and to be sure the wiring is in tip top shape and not a hotch potch of wiring jobs/repairs/additions done one upon the other over the years. Electrical wiring looms are complicated enough without having to figure out some ones addition or back yard fix that may have occurred in 1998 or 2006 etc. It represents a brilliant chance to bring the electrical system into the 2020's. Things like the Maretron Mpower system,

https://www.maretron.com/products/mpower.php

Sim Marine lighting control

The panel itself looks quite old and dated - what is the life of the switches/circuit breakers/fuses on an old panel ?



I want to redo the whole Nav Station/electrical panel area as it looks quite dated and a bit of a mess at present.



So considering all of the above and from reading done so far it appears as though if one were to install one of the Maretron TSM810C 8" vessel monitoring and control touchscreens then all the monitoring and switching could be done from the monitor and/or a PC.

Is there any need for a traditional electrical panel with a digital switching system?

Great question! Which will start an interesting discussion.


I will cast my vote with the KISS crowd. I love technology, but I would NOT want digital switching for this application! I would go with very best quality breakers in a traditional (e.g. Blue Sea) panel, with best quality tinned wiring, carefully sized.


I would also go with "If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It". If it's working perfectly with no signs of corrosion, I would wait to replace it. A well installed system might last a very long time. I would check all the connections under load with a thermometer gun, inspect everything carefully, before making the final decision.



When you do replace it, whether now or later, expect to spend a bundle unless you're doing the wiring yourself. It's a surprisingly big job. We did this on our previous boat and despite paying a low hourly price to an electrician friend, we were shocked at the bill.



Where you do want technology is battery and charging management. The Pico system looks good, but a more conservative choice would be something like Victron, especially if you are going to use a Multiplus charger/inverter.


Last tip: You can get very handsome custom switch panels printed for reasonable money. Carefully design, this can be really nice.

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Great question! Which will start an interesting discussion.

There have been some real pearls of advice come out of this thread so far. Its been very interesting reading and learning.


I will cast my vote with the KISS crowd. I love technology, but I would NOT want digital switching for this application! I would go with very best quality breakers in a traditional (e.g. Blue Sea) panel, with best quality tinned wiring, carefully sized.

Yes I am now leaning away from a digital switching system - just the dual pole thing throws digital switching out the window. Basic toughness and usability comes before anything else given my remote AO.

To my surprise it has been commented that Garcia didn't use tinned wire on thier installs. This is concerning. Of course I will have to check my boat to see what's what but right there, there is a big area of concern. Still the boat has gone 35 odd years with the wiring it has (assumed - yet to be verified). Question is will it go another 20 years without issues ? And THAT is the 64K question in all this. It would be an absolute nightmare to have to do this work when she is in her remote location. When I made my offer on the boat I took into account that I would spend around 30K doing some work to her. I have now understood that I am looking at 60-70K at least for the work I want to do it. And none of it is ever recoverable. One has to go into these things with eyes open. I need to get the old tub fit for my needs and if thats what it costs - so be it. I have been wanting to do this since 1996 - finally I am able to get it to happen. Cant take it with you - right?.......lol

I would also go with "If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It". If it's working perfectly with no signs of corrosion, I would wait to replace it. A well installed system might last a very long time. I would check all the connections under load with a thermometer gun, inspect everything carefully, before making the final decision.

That is an EXCELLANT idea! I have been looking for an excuse to get a nice thermal handheld thermometer - now I have it !



When you do replace it, whether now or later, expect to spend a bundle unless you're doing the wiring yourself. It's a surprisingly big job. We did this on our previous boat and despite paying a low hourly price to an electrician friend, we were shocked at the bill.

What I would like to do is pull any wiring needed myself and get a sparkie to hook everything up at the panel. Whether a boat sparkie will agree to this or not I am not sure. I want to do as much as possible myself so that i have intimate knowledge of every system aboard.



Where you do want technology is battery and charging management. The Pico system looks good, but a more conservative choice would be something like Victron, especially if you are going to use a Multiplus charger/inverter.

Yes definitely going down the Victron road on all this. The Sim marine light switching looks really nice and useful though. Could use Victron for the heavy lifting and the sim marine system just for lighting. Don't know yet - I need to look at it.


Last tip: You can get very handsome custom switch panels printed for reasonable money. Carefully design, this can be really nice.

Thanks for your tips - much appreciated. Can you give any further info on this option? Any where to look at such panels ?