LITHIUM BATTERIES FOR DUMMIES!

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

Even the thread title has me asking questions.
Lithium ION???
The posts are talking about LiFePo4. About which formula will this thread be?

Color me Wha? on Whidbey...

Well, the thread title is actually correct, as even the LFP's (or LiFePO4 which, due to my lack of OCD I can't be bothered to type absolutely correctly every time) use lithium ions to move charge around.

It's only that many people seem to associate lithium-ion with lithium-ion polymer batteries which could get confusing. And then it's a matter of time until one of those half-informed readers pipes up with "oh, yes, those batteries that catch fire in your back pocket and bring aircafts down, right?".



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

[LoudMusic]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I think Brian on Delos has a good technical base to use as a standard for asking basic questions.

1. With the same space available, is that 8D drop in solution recommended?

2. Sticking with Ah battery ratings (if we can) and an electrical hungry boat...(I have also just switched to induction stove) what is the optimum LiFeP04 capacity you should size to compared to your previous AGMs?
For example, my 8 x 8D 12v AGMs are sized @ 1040Ah @ 24v as it then only consumes about 10-12% SOC in 24hrs at anchor with 5 people

Do you recommend downsizing?

Brian did a good job, but I actually like the Wynns video on "why to use lithium" better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-kND4PaZm8

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by BenFranklyn

Pelagic, Some hard won experience worth considering. Lithium batteries do give great energy density. I installed a complete Victron system with 2 of the 24VDC, 180 AH power packs and they gave me something comparable to what 8 of the 8D Lead Acids gave me. Saying that I would never do it again as the system has been too unreliable. Worse then the unreliability is the lack of any support from the factory or knowledge of the product from people in the yards, including those listed as Factory authorized technicians.

Hello Ben, it would be interesting to hear why your LFPs were unreliable? Maybe that's for another thread, though?
And even though I do agree with you that it's early days for LFPs and even a lot of the marine electricians around the world don't know the difference. It's like in the early days of cars: there were no mechanics around and only few knew how to fix them. Or the early days of computers.



Yet LFPs still provide so many advantages that I moved to a combined system, mostly LFPs but also some AGMs in the mix which means I can switch over from one to the other in a blink.

It seems that even for you as an "early adopter" the ideal system would allow you to have both chemistries installed and be able to make use of them all?
Of course there will be some people that categorically say "Wrong. Wrong, these two chemistries are incompatible and cannot be mixed". Well, let me tell you it is possible, if you have a latching relay on every battery and a system to control them from.

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I think Brian on Delos has a good technical base to use as a standard for asking basic questions.

1. With the same space available, is that 8D drop in solution recommended?

2. Sticking with Ah battery ratings (if we can) and an electrical hungry boat...(I have also just switched to induction stove) what is the optimum LiFeP04 capacity you should size to compared to your previous AGMs?
For example, my 8 x 8D 12v AGMs are sized @ 1040Ah @ 24v as it then only consumes about 10-12% SOC in 24hrs at anchor with 5 people

Do you recommend downsizing?

Of course switching (from gas?) to induction will significantly increase your daily power consumption, so you need to get some numbers about how much you use that stove and at what setting.

Once you know that the resizing would be easy: ideally LFPs should stay between 10-90% SOC to get the longest life out of them. (Charge them only to around 50% if you leave the boat for extended periods while you disconnect them. Also, don't keep them at 100% SOC nor 0% for days on end).
Hence you want your daily consumption in Ah * number of days you want to buffer * 0.8 (to make use of 80% of the capacity).
In your example above you seem to consume around 120Ah per day (at 24V). If you want to cover three days without a charge source, you'd need at least 120 * 3 * 0.8 = 288 Ah of LFP capacity. Of course there are some conversion losses there as well.

[Time2Go]

The Transporter batteries on svDelos are
rebranded Dragonflyenergy.com batteries.
If you navigate to their FAQ
They have a question
What is a BMS
Kind of explains what’s happening inside the battery
However it leads to another
What happens to the whole bank if the BMS takes
a cell off-line?
Looking forward to this discussion.
Cheers
Neil

[kryg]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

This has been a fascinating technical thread but at 6000 posts is it beyond most cruisers who are just now considering the battery change?

I will start a new thread:
"Lithium Ion for Dummies" and hopefully the fantastic gurus on here would advise the less specialist captains on here with a redesign solution for their own boat's needs?

My own boat is not unlike the Delos 24v system / 8 x 8D 12v batteries connected series- parallel who have just released a video of their electrical changes.

https://youtu.be/GvDCLtN22jY

It would be interesting to hear the critiques from the knowledgeable contributers on here

I will still follow this one, but maybe the Dummies one can answer more basic user questions

I'm also learning how too, by going through the process of doing a study on changing my two battery AGM banks 0f 700 ah to 400 ah lithium. in Delos blog, Brian gave a referee site.

Nordkyn Design
http://nordkyndesign.com/from-lead-acid-to-lithium-new-battery-technology-for-power-on-board/ .

The Fellow, Eric Bretscher. website is very informative. he has spent considerable time and energy on the subject. So much so it is the best I information I have ever experience. I downloaded his very informative Lithium battery marine installation some 130 pages spread in across a number of segments. I'm only halfway through studying his material that is not reading, I mean studying.

Bottom line, there is shortcut no room of possibility to install a lithium battery bank successfully. by following the concept of such as DIY Lithium for Dummies. From what I read and not experienced - One would run a major risk of a destructive screw up with this kind of approach.
Unfortunately, there are no shortcuts. Meaning there can never be a Lithium for Dummies approach.

If you want to change to Lithium battery best study his material it will save you countless grief risking not only your lithium battery costly installation but also you boat assets, like all your charging equipment, is at risk of destruction, with a bad or naive installation.

In viewing Delos Video, it is a shame Brian did not fully follow the advice given in the Nordkyn Design blog, on Lithium batteries, even though he referenced it.

More importantly, the kits offered to ride on the back of Delos, Brian honourable installation effort, are now used as promos, can be misguided after reading Eric's blog, If you go down this road in my humble view after what I read so far you need to double check for yourself if these so-called Delos kits are a risky lithium battery installation solution as they seem.

Read for yourself, for me, it is now clear there should be no Dummies allowed in a marine lithium installation.

Hope this information helps.

[Pelagic]

Thanks to All for your Input...
To Clarify:

john61ct suggested that i just stick with the details of my battery conversion in order to get worthwhile input. So I will lay down my specifics for those to consider design solutions that they would be happy with.

Develop list of Manufacturers that I can get quotes from and share

Same time I am studying the info provided by Delos, Kyrg, and further recomended reading that comes out of this thread, which is geared towards a "Brian" level of understanding as a consumer.

As evm1024 poinetd out, I (WE) need to agree on important terminology that clarifies rather than confuses us as a sales tool.....the misleading meaning or use of "drop in", which the other thread spent a few posts on criticising.

To Start definitiions, BenFranklyn's in field solution to use his Lead Acid Batteries as a back up..... Can i call that a "Hybrid Battery Solution"? or is there a better name?

[Rorzech]

What about your 3Kw inverter to go with your 6 Kw of panels needed since one shadow of a line across your array cuts your power in half, plus there are many other reasons why your power will be cut in half. Better have a good size battery bank that can feed that massive inverter.

[alctel]

These are the 4 sites I used when I built my bank

LFP battery | Stan Honey and Sally Lindsay Honey's files

https://www.entropypool.de/2015/05/1...lifepo4-cells/

LiFePO4 Batteries - Thoughts & Musings Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

Electrical Design For a Marine Lithium Battery Bank | | Nordkyn Design

They agree on 90% of best practices, but there is a small amount of disagreement so you will have to use your judgement.

I am going to echo the person above who said there are NO SHORTCUTS FOR THIS STUFF. If you are going to install one of these banks you have to do a bunch of reading and learn how the system works - as someone else discovered very few marine engineers know anything about these - you are on your own.

I am very very skeptical of the 'drop in' batteries like Delos is using as reading about them they seem to go against a lot of the 'best practices' that have been hammered out over the last few years by early adopters. Buyer beware.

The good news is that it's actually not that hard to design your own system, it just takes a while to absorb the information to make an informed decision.

[kryg]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Thanks to All for your Input...
To Clarify:

john61ct suggested that i just stick with the details of my battery conversion in order to get worthwhile input. So I will lay down my specifics for those to consider design solutions that they would be happy with.

Develop list of Manufacturers that I can get quotes from and share

Same time I am studying the info provided by Delos, Kyrg, and further recomended reading that comes out of this thread, which is geared towards a "Brian" level of understanding as a consumer.





As evm1024 poinetd out, I (WE) need to agree on important terminology that clarifies rather than confuses us as a sales tool.....the misleading meaning or use of "drop in", which the other thread spent a few posts on criticising.

To Start definitiions, BenFranklyn's in field solution to use his Lead Acid Batteries as a back up..... Can i call that a "Hybrid Battery Solution"? or is there a better name?

The Answer you seek as per this blog, are all on Eric website. he is not a seller he is a system designer. You will be better served if you first read the information and then list your questions. As everything you ask is Now available including terminology suppliers which have been on tested and referenced already. Once your read all his information, you will be a far better starting point of understanding in your quest as will the Cruising form readers.


Happy Navigational Experiences,


Kryg,

[Pelagic]

Thanks for the aditional reading list Actel, I will get into them tonight.

As promissed, this is what I have to work with.

My Boat is a spacious Corten steel full bilge keel pilothouse schooner. 65 ft LOA, 55ft waterline.

All existing Batteries are exactly the same model TROJAN 8D -AGM (230Ah@20Hr) 12v Dual Purpose.
24v House Bank: 8 pieces on 2 shelves (series /parallel) total 920 Ah
24v Start Bank: 2 pieces
12v Radio/Instrument Battery that doubles as Gen Start. 1 Piece
Charging Devices:
Solar: 4 x 327W Panels = 1308W via OutBack 80 Controller…. Averages 36a @ 24v on clear days
Charger: Victron Skyla 50A 24v
Invertor/Charger: Victron Phoenex Multiplus 24v/3000W/70a …..2010 model
Control Panel: Victron VE Bus Multi ….. (2010 Model)
Smart Battery Monitor: Victron P600 ….. (2010 Model)
Main Engine: Perkins 6.3544M Series -TU …..(Old and reliable)
Alternator: Mark Graser 24V 110amp (75a at idle) for House Bank (Emergency Parallel)
Alternator: Balmar 621-24V-70amp-SR-IG for Start Bank (Emergency Parallel)
Generator: Northern Lights M844K 12kw 220V 50Hz/ 54.4amp. (1500rpm=2.3 ltr/h half load)

Operationally
I sail with my girlfriend together with her sister and brother.
Other couples often join for short trips or if they want to do a longer passage.
All tropical cruising in Asia, so dealing with high temperatures.

I switched to induction for the same reasons as Brian but we kept the tanks and augment most anchorage meals with a propane BBQ (Weber) for outdoor cooking.

The girls prefer to do a big cookup of meals to freeze once or twice a week in the cooler mornings while we do other chores, so I anticipate the Genrerator working for the 4 ring Induction cooker and air con to keep them happy!

So we will generally harmonize induction with generator so as not to overwhelm Solar recharging.

my 8 x 8D 12v AGMs are sized @ 1040Ah @ 24v as it then only consumes about 10-12% SOC in 24hrs at anchor with 5 people
To clarify the discrepency that was with my old bank of Fullriver batteries @260AH each, not the Trojans.

If "Hybird" is the direction the reading suggests, I might look at replacing 4 of the 8 House Bank with Lithium

[nwdiver]

The best explanation I have seen is done on "Journey With Jono" on utube, lithium systems have been used on narrow boats for longer than sea going boats (more or less) probably because of Victron being British.......he has about 5 videos on the setup and running his system......

[john61ct]

LFP is one type of lithium ion, and the only one suitable for this use case.

Originally Posted by Pelagic

is that 8D drop in solution recommended?

Personally I doubt any drop-in LFP

meaning 4S cells of unknown provenance sealed up into a 12V case, with internal BMS and voltages of individual cell inaccessible from the outside system.

will last as long as a bank comprising quality prismatics.

> what is the optimum LiFeP04 capacity you should size to compared to your previous AGMs? For example, my 8 x 8D 12v AGMs are sized @ 1040Ah @ 24v as it then only consumes about 10-12% SOC in 24hrs at anchor with 5 people

Yes you are carrying lots of dead lead weight, if you aren't "mostly solar" where it can get cloudy for days.

If you want that extra capacity, 600AH LFP would be ballpark same usable size.

If you have decent dino juice sources on demand then 200AH is plenty.

[john61ct]

Here's my "boilerplate" LFP summary, mostly collected from past threads here, with special thanks to Maine Sail.

Any and all feedback is welcome, especially if more "canonical" information from the master thread conflict with my summary.

______
Systems: OceanPlanet (Lithionics), Victron, MasterVolt, Redarc (Oz specific?)

Bare cells: ​Winston/Voltronix, CALB, GBS, A123 & Sinopoly

Best to size your cells for two parallel strings for redundancy, unless you have a separate reserve/backup bank. Don't go past three, or you may see balancing issues that affect long-term longevity, maybe four in a pinch.

Note nearly **every** vendor, also those of ancillary hardware touted as "LFP ready", gives charging voltages **way too high** for longevity.

My (conspiracy) theory is that manufacturers would prefer their cells get burned out in under 10 years.

EV usage is very different from much gentler House bank cycling. Most EV people talking "lithium-ion" mean other chemistries not as safe as LFP, much shorter lifetimes, and with completely different setpoints and behaviors.

My charge settings for LFP: 3.45Vpc, which = 13.8V max for 4S "12V".

The point is to look at the SoC vs Voltage chart, and avoid the "shoulders" at both ends, stay in the smooth parts of the curve.

Either "just stop" charging when voltage is hit, or if you want another couple % SoC capacity, stop when trailing amps **at your spec'd voltage** hits endAmps of .02C, or 2A per 100AH.*

Note even at the "low" max charge voltage, letting the charge source continue to "push" even low currents long past the endAmps point is **over-charging, and will** greatly reduce lifecycles.

So if you can't then "just stop", set Float well below resting Full voltage, at say 13.1V, but that is a compromise, and *may* shorten life cycles.

With LFP, you don't need to fill up all the way at all, as far as the cells are concerned. In fact, it is bad for them to sit there more than a few minutes. Therefore only "fill up" if consumer loads are present, ready to start discharging, ideally right away.

Many sources claim there is a "memory effect" from keeping charge voltage and ending point exactly the same every time lower than manufacturer specs, that can apparently over time lead to apparent lower capacity. The recommended fix is to "go higher, into the shoulder" every so often, similar to "conditioning" a FLA bank monthly. To prevent the issue, vary your setpoints a bit, sometimes go a point or two higher or lower, vary Absorb time a bit etc. There is no consensus just how serious the problem is.

Store the bank as cool as possible and at 10-20% SoC, or maybe higher to compensate for self-discharge, if not getting topped up regularly (I would at least monthly).*

Letting the batts go "dead flat" = instant **permanent unrecoverable** damage.

Same with charging in below 32°F / 0°C freezing temps.

Persistent high temps also drastically shortens life.

Charging at 1C or even higher is no problem, as long as your wiring is that robust, vendors may spec lower out of legal caution.

Again, going above 14V won't add much AH capacity, but will shorten life cycles dramatically.

And of course, we're talking about gentle "partial C" House bank discharge rates, size appropriately and be careful feeding heavy loads like a winch or windlass.

Following these tips, letting the BMS do active balancing is unnecessary and potentially harmful, just look for LVD / OVD and temp protection. Multiple layers of protection are advised if it is a very expensive bank, so you don't rely on any one device to keep working.

Check cell-level voltage balance say monthly to start, then quarterly, finally every six months if there are no imbalance issues, but only if that seems safe to you.

[john61ct]

The fact that these are drop-ins does not make it more acceptable to follow the industry standard too-high charging specs.