Full electronics upgrade - B&G, Raymarine or Garmin?

[Jimbo2010]

Originally Posted by sinnerman

My two cents:

Raymarine is entry level (my whell autopilot is plastic and looks like it was purchased at Toys-R-Us...)
Ditto for Garmin
B&G makes great sailboat racing instrumentation
Furuno is professional quality

cheers

Call B&G for support, it don't exist, no support no sale

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by sv_pelagia

Several posts put Furuno at or near the top, with no subsequent disagreement.

So why so few here going with Furuno?

Money

[donradcliffe]

I have delivered all kinds, and I couldn't recommend any of them for a new boat. Function and reliability, and support are going downhill. The standard response to problems is to take it to your dealer. Networked systems means you lose all functions.

If you developed a user friendly and reliable system for sailors, you would be bought out by one of the big boys and your products discontinued.

One brand is notorious for cutting off support to older units, but I forget which one.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by sv_pelagia

Several posts put Furuno at or near the top, with no subsequent disagreement.


So why so few here going with Furuno?

Autopilot is for fishing and commercial. They really haven't focused on the sailing market.

[MV Intrigue]

I have all Garmin. I recently figured out the ethernet port on the 923XSV wasnt working on the upper helm. Called Garmin and talked to a very nice person who had me do some very basic troubleshooting and we determined that it was the 923XSV unit itself. He looked up the purchase date for potential warranty and wouldnt you know it...it was a week out of warranty. They sent me a new one anyways and I had it 4 days later. This was 1 month ago FYI.

One additional thing for Garmin is they have Fusion audio, which I absolutely love. And lastly I have the Garmin Quatix smart watch that can control all of it...lol. The Fusion audio, the autopilot, anchor alarm and gets charts etc. Yes its a bit gimicky but some of it is actually quite useful.

I also use the Navionics Vision + charts which has daily updates. Of course I dont update daily but when I do, its all through the phone and it updates charts and software all at the same time. Usually I just walk on the boat and it just starts doing things.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

...One brand is notorious for cutting off support to older units, but I forget which one.

It's Garmin which has that (well-earned) reputation. But, to be honest, I think they're all doing that now. Anything electronic, no matter how expensive, is considered throw-away these days. Just look at the people who buy a new $1,200 phone every year.

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

It's Garmin which has that (well-earned) reputation. But, to be honest, I think they're all doing that now. Anything electronic, no matter how expensive, is considered throw-away these days. Just look at the people who buy a new $1,200 phone every year.

Yes, Garmin has earned that reputation. But when it comes to charts and formats we are in a new world. In the past Navionics and C-map were independent, and chartplotters offered support for one or the other, or often both. But now Garmin owns Navionics, and Navico (now a Brunswick subsidiary) owns C-map. This leaves RayMarine and Furuno having to source their charts from the competition. This is known as monopolization through vertical integration, and should have been prevented by anti-trust laws, which are only now starting to be enforced after Reagan killed enforcement <sigh>. With chart formats, we have gone through a time where formats changed to support new features, such as 3D presentations. Let us hope that it has stabilized, as obsoleted formats has been a big part of early obsolescence.

Greg

[kaz911]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Yes, Garmin has earned that reputation. But when it comes to charts and formats we are in a new world. In the past Navionics and C-map were independent, and chartplotters offered support for one or the other, or often both. But now Garmin owns Navionics, and Navico (now a Brunswick subsidiary) owns C-map. This leaves RayMarine and Furuno having to source their charts from the competition.

Greg

I would say the worse thing about the current "Chart Wars" is we all know some charts are better in some areas than others.

So if you own a Plotter from B&G that only supports CMAP then you are royally screwed in some areas. Same goes for Garmin - where other areas are truly bad. RayMarines LightHouse charts are even more limited than both prior mentioned.

But that is a safety risk for the user - especially now where most cartography houses / offices (the countries departments responsible for maintaining charts) are pushing for digital only.

So if you don't own a "Multiple Map Source" capable plotter - you need multiple plotters from different brands.

I find the behaviour from Navico/B&G & Garmin a bit childish to be honest.

In the interest of your personal safety - you need plotters that work with different charts.

And plotter manufactures have to swallow their pride and support all major chart types (if they own a chart company )

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by kaz911

...So if you don't own a "Multiple Map Source" capable plotter - you need multiple plotters from different brands.

Sort of tips the balance in favor of something like OpenCPN, doesn't it? There are other options, such as AquaMaps, which also allow me to download government-produced charts.

I prefer this option where possible. Just give me the "official" charts. I don't want to pay for extra crap like fishing spots, aerial photography or 3D views. Or, at least, I want the option not to pay for the add-ons I don't need.

Obviously where the official charts are insufficient, that's another matter.

Originally Posted by kaz911

I find the behaviour from Navico/B&G & Garmin a bit childish to be honest...

And plotter manufactures have to swallow their pride and support all major chart types (if they own a chart company )

It's not pride. It's not childishness. It's greed. That's the whole point of a monopoly. Give customers no choice so you can charge more than anyone would voluntarily pay. Today the belief seems to be that a corporation has no mission, no purpose and no loyalty to anyone else, beyond enriching the stockholders.

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

It's not pride. It's not childishness. It's greed. That's the whole point of a monopoly. Give customers no choice so you can charge more than anyone would voluntarily pay. Today the belief seems to be that a corporation has no mission, no purpose and no loyalty to anyone else, beyond enriching the stockholders.

Correct, until the last bit. We all see our economy through the traditional economics lens, which holds that corporations are owned by, and operated for the benefit of, shareholders. This was probably true in the past, but no longer describes the situation. Corporations today are run for the benefit of the Executive suite, pure and simple. The majority of shares on the open market are owned by fiduciaries, usually investment funds (pension funds, IRAs, etc), which in turn are mostly held by working people. Serving these ultimate "beneficial" owners is not the goal of the Executive suite. Just ask working people whether they want the companies they are invested in to pay their executives millions every year - they don't, but the system is rigged to prevent them from using their ownership to influence that. Executive compensation usually includes stock options and stock grants, both of which benefit by rising stock prices; so by retaining earnings and buying back stock the price is increased without any improvement in business performance. And these options and grants transfer ownership from existing owners to the E-suite (through dilution). This is not remotely in the shareholders' interests. We must return to the days where the CEO is simply the most senior employee and not royalty, and not paid royally either. Plus we need to recognize that corporations exist primarily for the greater good, not just for CEOs or shareholders, and that employees, communities, consumers, and the business ecosystem all need to benefit.

Greg

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

... Corporations today are run for the benefit of the Executive suite, pure and simple...

I stand corrected. I think I was talking about what some people these days consider the "ideal." That is, screw the employees, screw the customers, screw quality and service, and just enrich stockholders. That would make for a nice world to live in, eh?

Sadly, I think your statement is closer to reality.

[Rohan]

My 2 cents. Here's something to consider in this decision. I recommend getting the cheapest system. I just upgraded a very old Raymarine C80 with an Axiom. It's definitely an improvement in every way over the old one, BUT...

a waterproof tablet is still significantly cheaper, and in most ways quality is better. The screen resolution, colors, and functions are overall just better on the tablet. The tablet is also a hell of a lot easier to update maps.

So I consider the Axiom to be the backup method, my tablet is my primary method of navigation. Even if you don't see it the same way now, you might in the future, when tablets get even better and are much easier to replace than built in chartplotters.

[KevinE]

I like the concept of Orca (http://getorca.com). Pick the nmea devices of your choice to serve up wind / depth / AIS etc. Select a radar system that Orca supports. Use their hardware/software to run on displays of your choice (phone, tablet, watch - up to 5 displays on you boat). The biggest thing for me is the software should run like a well designed phone app. I find the Garmin echo system so fragmented and unintuitive. If its navigation related and I can do it on my phone that's the direction I will go (android of course!).

[kaz911]

Originally Posted by KevinE

I like the concept of Orca (http://getorca.com). Pick the nmea devices of your choice to serve up wind / depth / AIS etc. Select a radar system that Orca supports. Use their hardware/software to run on displays of your choice (phone, tablet, watch - up to 5 displays on you boat). The biggest thing for me is the software should run like a well designed phone app. I find the Garmin echo system so fragmented and unintuitive. If its navigation related and I can do it on my phone that's the direction I will go (android of course!).

I do like Orca and have it as my backup. I do not like their Display 2 - it is slow. If you have used Orca on iPad vs Orca on Display 2 - it is night and day difference. The Display 2 tablet is also thick and honestly "ugly" when panel installed next to modern instruments. I had mine "test installed" in an MDF board next to other instruments and it just looked completely out of place. So I'm putting it on a VESA RAM mount.

For normal sailing it can be a bit of a challenge with the "not very high contrast" maps in strong sunlight.

But for usability - the Orca is good. The family can use the "auto-routing" without the PITA interface of Navico/Raymarine. Garmin is still the king of Auto-routing though, but not the king of sailing features.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by kaz911

I do like Orca and have it as my backup. I do not like their Display 2 - it is slow. If you have used Orca on iPad vs Orca on Display 2 - it is night and day difference. The Display 2 tablet is also thick and honestly "ugly" when panel installed next to modern instruments. I had mine "test installed" in an MDF board next to other instruments and it just looked completely out of place. So I'm putting it on a VESA RAM mount.

Dang, the Display 2 looked quick in their demos online.