Full electronics upgrade - B&G, Raymarine or Garmin?

[walkabout08]

Originally Posted by kaz911

So we have bought a 1998 50' sailboat with full Raymarine Electronics suite. (C140W's/MasterView/SPX30) - most of the Masterview LCD's are dead etc. so we are planning to do a full electronics upgrade.

But what would you choose?

Garmin: Overall ok - but anything bar the new 9000 series is a bit outdated. But the 9000 series is too much. (xx3 series is > 3 years old)

B&G - Again same as above - Zeus 3S is almost 4 years old and development is a bit stale ATM (IMHO). Zeus S (android) is just too limited.

Raymarine - seems to be charging ahead for the first time in 20 years with new sailboat products and updated displays. (Axiom 2, Alpha Displays, RSW Wind sensor etc). On the negative it is Android based - on an old (seemingly) Linux kernel (3.1)

I have NEVER been a Raymarine fan and had preference for B&G/Garmin. But right now I'm kind of re-evaluating my preferences.

What would you choose?

I would choose Garmin. Navico bought out the old B&G company and now all the hardware is the same Gisher Price toy quality whether it’s B&G, Simrad etc.
The B&G sailing software I like quite a lot. Maybe if you pulled out the checkbook and put in H5000 computers and displays you hardware might be more durable but you’re still left with chart plotters and radar domes that are not durable and reliable.

[Goodboatguy]

We bought a new B&G system in 2022 for our 55 foot sailing catamaran. We went with B&G for halo radar, 12 inch Zeus3S chart plotter, depth sounders and wind instruments. We already had a nice standard horizon VHF/AIS. The biggest reason I went the B&G was that I have a rotating mast and they are the only ones who had a sensor that would feed the angle back into the system and correct the other inputs. I was pleasantly surprised that this works!

System install was pretty straightforward and I did manage to get a hold of somebody at BNG without too much trouble once but have had long wait times when I tried to contact them with some other minor questions. Initially the standard horizon AIS connected seamlessly into the system with NMEA 2000. But in 2023 I updated the software for the BG chart plotter and immediately the standard horizon AIS input no longer worked. Of course BG said it was Standard horizon’s fault even though nothing changed on that end. The standard horizon didn’t have AIS transmit, so we went with the top of the line BG VHF/AIS receiver-transmitter as a replacement to avoid the different vendor issue. Also, the software update reset a lot of the internal set up parameters and it took a bit of screwing around with it to get things functional again. No more software updates please!

After about a year and a half mast head wind sensor went out, I read online thats a common problem with the BG wind instruments, they don’t last. Get a spare if you’re going cruising. I filed for a warranty replacement but never could get a firm answer on when it was coming. We were headed to Bahamas so I just bought a new one and figured I would use the warranty one as a spare. However it’s been about five months and there’s been no action that I can tell on their end to get me a replacement under warranty.

Overall the BG system is relatively user-friendly, powerful and functional. My wife likes it too, no complaints there. We have depth transducers in each hull, which has been very useful when transiting a narrow channel. The display can be set up to show both readings side-by-side.

We also got the SiriusXM marine weather radio antenna and get their weather forecast inputs directly to the chart plotter. it’s a subscription service about $70 a month I think, we’ve been very happy with it. Very comprehensive and easy to use Unfortunately it’s not useful for music. the BG SiriusXM antenna Only has an outdated analog output that’s impossible to use with any modern stereo that’s expecting a digital input.

[My Wind Lass]

So the main points I have surmised by reading through this whole thread is the following:
Raymarine tech support is outstanding.
Do NOT buy a touch-only system.
Avoid B&G because of poor support (Navico parent co.)
probably best to stick to the same vendor unless you enjoy troubleshooting tech issues.

This seems to be the general consensus.

This would lead me to conclude that since I have already installed a Garmin auto pilot system, a Vesper (Garmin) VHF/AIS Transponder, an older (3 yrs+) Garmin chartplotter, I should stick with Garmin for radar, depth and wind instruments.

[kaz911]

Originally Posted by walkabout08

I would choose Garmin. Navico bought out the old B&G company and now all the hardware is the same Gisher Price toy quality whether it’s B&G, Simrad etc.
The B&G sailing software I like quite a lot. Maybe if you pulled out the checkbook and put in H5000 computers and displays you hardware might be more durable but you’re still left with chart plotters and radar domes that are not durable and reliable.

I have had a lot of Garmin experience - I even have a stack here of xx1/xx2's that all suffer from the same issues. Dead touch screen or freezing/rebooting - and IMHO it is due to the smaller devices overheating.

The overheat issue is due to the way Garmin layered up the cooling to the cooling backplate. Over time the cooling elements from the CPU and board components become "compressed" (they are rubbery) so they no longer transfer the heat away from the "heat extensive" components. After that they kill themselves due to excessive heat. (this is my personal opinion based on taking a lot of them apart)

I do not know if xx3's are better. But the 74/76xx series are for certain better. I replaced my dad's 7x2 with a 7408 - and since then he had been a happy camper with no screen-freeze or reboots.

So Garmin is not always a "rosy" companion.

And again everything bar the 9000 series is very outdated and will soon go "EOL" (In my opinion) - once the next generation launch - SW updates are limited.

I would not buy anything B&G or Garmin right now. Zeus S is ok if you can live with the CMAP limitation and relative slowness IHMO. Garmin 9000 series is okay if you can live with a start price of $9000.

And if you buy anything Android based - make certain you have them behind a capable router with firewall that can block unwanted tracking and intrusions.

[DancingDays]

Originally Posted by My Wind Lass

So the main points I have surmised by reading through this whole thread is the following:
[...]
Raymarine tech support is outstanding.
[...]

I've found RayMarine support to be responsive. But the responses have not always been helpful.

For example, when my brand new wheel pilot made a horrible grinding noise, their response was "Open it up--you should be able to find the problem." Maybe that is a practical response, but it was not what I expected.

But I guess that still puts their support on par with or better than most any large tech company.

[johnn33]

Near me we have this company A+T Instruments info@AandTinstruments.com
who are very good
John

[rls8r]

Sorry that I can't give you any first-hand comparisons between the brands you mention (and Furuno) - but I can let you know what works for me and my experiences.

First - I agree with s/v Jedi in most of his recommendations. I have the same depth sensor, wind instrument (CV7 but also with the Windyplug that allows direct connection to a NMEA2000 network), radio (Standard Horizon GX2200), and AIS (em-trak B954). Unlike s/v Jedi who seems to have gone with B&G - I went with Garmin (using the GPSMAP 1243 plotter, GMR 18HDx radar and GMI 20 marine instrument). My autopilot is an older Raymarine Smartpilot S3G with an ST6001 controller.

Everything works fine together - and went together with no problem (and that says a lot given my mastery of things electronic). The system is, truly, "plug-and-play." Most things talk with one another over a Garmin "starter" NMEA2000 network kit that I installed one afternoon. The radar talks with the plotter over its own ethernet cable. The autopilot talks with the plotter via a NMEA 0183 connection.

I've had no real technical issues - but one or two minor ones. In all cases I've quickly connected over the phone with Garmin support. All problems were handled successfully over the phone (and one involved the Garmin folks FedEx-ing me an update microSD card at no charge). My tech support experience largely mirrors my experience trying to get information about the pros and cons of various systems at boat shows and electronics consultants when trying to determine which system to purchase.

My plotter is downstairs at my nav station. I use a tablet with the "Helm" function of the ActiveCaptain app to control things from, well, the helm. The tablet connects with the plotter via WiFi and does so reliably and seamlessly.

Now, I'm not very demanding in my use of my electronics. I don't race. I just want my plotter to tell me where I am, my radar and AIS to tell me where other people are, and my wind and depth instruments to tell me about my environment. I don't want to watch movies on my plotter or listen to music or make telephone calls. I don't monitor my engine or tankage on my plotter.

You may have special uses and sailing demands that may require a more sophisticated system. But - overall, I've found that for us "meat-and-potatoes" sailors all of the major electronics vendors offer about the same functionality. For me, it came down to personal preference with regard to the display, ease of bushwacking through the maze of menus, and tech support. So, which is it: Ford or Chevrolet? Mac or PC? Garmin or B&G or Raymarine?

[CarinaPDX]

The name of the thread says it all: "Full electronics upgrade - B&G, Raymarine or Garmin?" - the choices are constrained to the recreational products found at retail outlets. If the discussion is so limited then Raymarine is the answer, because of product capabilities and support. Previous posts have pointed out the problems with the others, but Raymarine has fared better. I have worked on all three and my recommendation is to download the user manuals for any chartplotters of interest. The B&G manual is short and lacking in details, because the product is lacking in customization options (things which I would like to have). Similar for Garmin. The basic Raymarine manual is also short and easy, but there is a second, much larger, manual that documents all of the features and customizations; the RM chartplotters are very full function. Which means you can adapt the product better, and with the documentation instead of trying to find time with support.

What the OP should notice is that the Furuno mentions, outside of the stated scope, are uniformly positive if not outright glowing. Furuno is commercial gear, used on fishing and military vessels. It is mostly sold through professional outlets, and online. It is a level above the others. Service is outstanding, as is reliability and performance (well, the product and documentation as well). When I go to the Seattle boat show I stop at the booth and talk to the support folks that are there. In the past I have used their owners forum, where Furuno support is active. Perhaps the best part is that my 14 year old chartplotter is still working and still supported. Every year I download the free NOAA chart update. I can still buy new charts, in the same (current) 3D chart format. Try that with Garmin... Or the others. Also, Furuno went all-in with touchscreen, then saw the light and added back the separate controls (hint: touching a screen with salty hands is not a great idea). The only downside to Furuno, aside from a somewhat higher price, is that they are usually a bit behind when adopting new technologies; but when they do they nail it. Furuno was last with a solid state radar, but what a radar! Doppler and all. Another thing to like is that Furuno supports NMEA 2000 with the recommended DeviceNet connectors, and has for a long time. The SimNet connectors I have on my Simrad AIS are just garbage. RM have decent cabling, just not N2K/DeviceNet standard. Why? (OK, I know the answer: more money with proprietary gear.)

Do yourself a favor and take a close look at Furuno. And don't buy any chartplotter without downloading the manual(s) and studying them. Before spending thousands first work out how the system will be installed and which features you want. If you have a question then call support first: the results will be instructive.

Greg

[Markhunter1097]

Why not try to contact all their customer support with a the same question, I bet Garmin won’t answer, b&g I don’t know, but Raymarine will impress you
Then make that the basis of your choice.
I have used all 3 products on various boats, all are excellent and some have bits better/worse than the others .
All my chartplptting I do on an iPad, now anyway

[sv_pelagia]

Just had some detailed chart questions by email for Furuno tech service... they replied almost immediately (within 1 hr) with several fully informative screen shots of 2 types of charts available for their TZT3 series.



Excellent communications.



I've thus just ordered new FURUNO TZT39F Chartplotter and DRS2DNXT 19" Doppler radar.

[Kit_L]

This is a tremendously useful thread. A few comments and a personal perspective.

Where we are (South Coast Australia) Furuno is the overwhelming choice on commercial vessels. This is where I will be looking first, when it's time for us to do a new install.

I get anxious when devices need to talk to each other. Our old (17 years) Furuno chart plotter is stand-alone, as is our autopilot and sounder. We can't see everything at once on an MFD, and I prefer it that way. We always do big-scale reckoning and route plotting on paper, and double check with the old Furuno, and the latest Navionics on an iPad.

Crude, but it works, and so far nothing has failed.

[nrx500]

In 2017 my dealer installed Garmin GPSMAP 1242 xsv, course computer, hydraulic autopilot, sonar, and wind instruments. All connected on an NMEA 2000 network. Every year I get firmware updates and map updates on the Garmin Active Captain app on my phone. My GPSMAP has its own WiFi network and my phone connects to it, then updates all the firmware on my Garmin hardware. Several years ago I bought a ICOM M605 and wired that into my NMEA 2000 network. It works perfectly. I bought a Si-Tex MDA-5 AIS and had to junk it after the first year. It was under warranty, but Si-Tex would not replace it. I bought a Garmin AIS 800, and that works perfectly. Garmin does customer service by phone and email. If there is a wait on the phone, they'll call you. They have chirp sonar and sonar that will look forward so you know what's in front of you. Garmin is selling Vesper radio and AIS solutions that can send you notifications when you're off the boat. Their charting software will plot a course around obstacles if you like that sort of thing. They also have video cameras. West Marine stores have working displays of all the leading brands. Go see for yourself and ask questions.

[merrydolphin]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

I have the benefit of using many brands on instruments on deliveries. For a passage making sailboat, I would chose B&G, for functionality and user interface==but with a big caveat.

As recently as 3 or 4 years ago Navico had the best technical service anywhere. That has now totally collapsed. They do not respond to emails, and getting a tech on the phone is very close to impossible. To me, that does not show a commitment of the parent company to the business. I hate to see it, but they are killing themselves.

Even though I like the product, I am finding it very hard to recommend.

I agree. I think B&G have great products but if you can’t communicate with them, I certainly won’t be buying any of their products. I have been going with Garman and have completly re- outfitted 2 cruising boats with their gear. And not easy but quite possible to communicate with them. I have never been a big Raymarine fan, but maybe need to look closer today. The other thing going for Garman: I am also a GA pilot. Man their aviation stuff is amazing. (So is the price tag).

[sailorxyz]

I have an all Raymarine system that I've upgraded over 28 years. Raymarine has only got better and I've remained satisfied. That said, My VHF is ICOM and my AIS is VesperMarine. Both also have given good service.

[Rimica]

I have a 2017 complete B&G system and sail full time. During the 7 years, I had to replace the Zeus screen, the radar dome, the gps antenna, the backbone wire and now my vhs is acting up, all are B&G.

A few years ago service calls were knowledgeably answered, now the delays are just insulting.

If I had to start from scratch today, I would probably use another brand.