Did I make a $1,400 mistake?

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by Tatheelrod22

In early spring in anticipation of a trip on a friends boat that’s in process I purchased a new IPAD with built in GPS and their largest screen in order to use it with Navionics. I don’t recall if the clerk at Best Buy asked me if I needed the cellular or Wi-Fi version, but I do recall an extensive conversation regarding my main purpose for buying a larger/IPAD.
After much experimenting trying to get Navionics to show our vessel position and basically do everything on it that I could do on my very small IPHONE, I called Navionics and evenly got a live person to trouble shoot with me. In fairly quick time we landed on my IPAD, not having “cellular’. So now it seems I’ve been using a device for three months, that won’t even do what I mainly bought it for. There’s no way they take it back at this point and swap it but we are in port for a bit si I plan to go talk to them in person about this.
Before I do I’d like to understand this a bit more, plus learn about options such as “ Bad Elf”, which the Navionics trouble shooting guy on the phone told me about. The last thing I want is another device to buy/charge/keep up with, but it sounds like at this point it might be the most practical solution?
Lastly, why do I need ‘cellular” on a device I don’t plan to use as one? Just this post and specifically the prior question probably confirm I’m a technoidiot, and if so that’s definitely accurate.

Thoughts on/education/suggestions and pros/cons of Bad Elf or a similar device very much appreciated folks. If an archive search (which I also struggle with) would have revealed my answers I apologize, but my window of being in port and learning then executing on what I need to do is only open a short period, and I hope to resolve this today.

I had a Bad Elf that accidentally went to Davy Jones Locker over the winter, but I did not like it at all. At times it was WILDLY inaccurate, and it tended to jump around a fair bit. By that I mean my position would suddenly jump 100 ft or 1,500 ft to the side, and my COG would make wild swings.

[noelex 77]

The approximate fix of wifi only iPads still works when unconnected to the internet, but I can see how it could be using wifi signals rather than cell phone towers to arrive at this position.

Whatever the mechanism behind the fix, you need to be careful to keep in mind that there are significant errors in the position fix when using a wifi only iPad unless you connect to an external GPS device.

It is easy to mistake the fix displayed on the screen for an accurate GPS fix. I think this is what is fooling the OP into believing his tablet has a GPS chip.

[mdhanlon]

I have a Dual Electronics XGPS 160. It connects via bluetooth to 5 devices, has a built in battery and receives both GPS (USA) and GLONASS (Russia). Has been excellent and I've even done comparisons to the built in GPS chip on my iphone. The XGPS provides more accurate data, especially when moving quickly (less relevant to sailing).

[AKA-None]

Remember that an iPhone or iPad wants to know where it is to as accurate position as possible si it can be found
This is irrespective of how it accomplishes that goal but is directly related to the tools at its disposal

[s/v Jedi]

What it all comes down to:

- backup for the backup. If you want a device to use when all else fails then use your smartphone for that. An iPhone with iSailor installed would be a great option. You can call when in range of cell towers, it has very accurate internal GPS, it will do everything in a very small device.
I use this with a wristband as well, so that I can go on deck, roam about while having all info as well as autopilot control with me.

- the everyday backup: from the Apple store get the cheapest model iPad with 256GByte Memory, with wifi only. It costs $479.- https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-ipad/ipad-10-2
If you want prettier, bigger then go ahead, you can spend up to $2000 but know it won’t give you any extra functionality for navigation.

- now you need to link it to your instruments. For this there are 3 options:

1 - you have nothing except for old, obsolete equipment. Great, you can start with a blank slate. Here is the very best thing you can buy now: https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1&id=7308039
This is a modern GPS with NMEA2000 interface. But it also has Bluetooth to link directly to your iPad or to use their app which you also use to configure it. You don’t need their brand plotter or displays to configure it.

If you really don’t have a nmea2000 network yet then you need this starter kit as well: https://www.amazon.com/Ancor-Marine-...s%2C147&sr=8-3

2 - You have a NMEA2000 network or a compatible Seatalk NG and you need to get that data available for your iPads, laptops etc. via wifi. You only need one device for this: https://www.yachtd.com/products/wifi_gateway.html

3 - You are like me and have a NMEA2000 with all kinds of sensors, displays, wind, depth, speed, compass/heading, autopilot, gps etc.
You also have your own wifi AP aboard or want to buy one. This will be usable for Internet, maybe you have a NAS, music streaming etc. or even an Ethernet switch and Ethernet cables to cabins etc. and you want to connect your NMEA network with your Ethernet/wifi. For this you use a NMEA2000 to Ethernet gateway: https://www.yachtd.com/products/ethernet_gateway.html
If you need a wifi AP then look at the offerings from Mikrotik and Ubiquity. Mikrotik is great for those who like to work with Linux etc.

[goboatingnow]

How do you control your autopilot

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

How do you control your autopilot

With iSailor. It is a one time fee to enable the module. Your NMEA2000 Wifi gateway must be 2-directional.

[billgewater]

Many folk use Open CPN with a small GPS receiver (BU353S4, about $20). Open CPN can be installed free on just about any computer but I don't believe that Navionics charts are compatible. I use the old CM93 files which are basically free but not necessarily up to date or in the best of detail
However, it also seems that there are many charts available free for specific areas.
You can go to the Open CPN web site/forum and see what charts can be used.
Maybe someone knows how to make Navionics work on Open CPN?

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

What it all comes down to:

- backup for the backup. If you want a device to use when all else fails then use your smartphone for that. An iPhone with iSailor installed would be a great option. You can call when in range of cell towers, it has very accurate internal GPS, it will do everything in a very small device.
I use this with a wristband as well, so that I can go on deck, roam about while having all info as well as autopilot control with me.

- the everyday backup: from the Apple store get the cheapest model iPad with 256GByte Memory, with wifi only. It costs $479.- https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-ipad/ipad-10-2
If you want prettier, bigger then go ahead, you can spend up to $2000 but know it won’t give you any extra functionality for navigation.

- now you need to link it to your instruments. For this there are 3 options:

1 - you have nothing except for old, obsolete equipment. Great, you can start with a blank slate. Here is the very best thing you can buy now: https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1&id=7308039
This is a modern GPS with NMEA2000 interface. But it also has Bluetooth to link directly to your iPad or to use their app which you also use to configure it. You don’t need their brand plotter or displays to configure it.

If you really don’t have a nmea2000 network yet then you need this starter kit as well: https://www.amazon.com/Ancor-Marine-...s%2C147&sr=8-3

2 - You have a NMEA2000 network or a compatible Seatalk NG and you need to get that data available for your iPads, laptops etc. via wifi. You only need one device for this: https://www.yachtd.com/products/wifi_gateway.html

3 - You are like me and have a NMEA2000 with all kinds of sensors, displays, wind, depth, speed, compass/heading, autopilot, gps etc.
You also have your own wifi AP aboard or want to buy one. This will be usable for Internet, maybe you have a NAS, music streaming etc. or even an Ethernet switch and Ethernet cables to cabins etc. and you want to connect your NMEA network with your Ethernet/wifi. For this you use a NMEA2000 to Ethernet gateway: https://www.yachtd.com/products/ethernet_gateway.html
If you need a wifi AP then look at the offerings from Mikrotik and Ubiquity. Mikrotik is great for those who like to work with Linux etc.

This also looks like a good option and one I'm considering for my vessel which is predominantly SeaTalk with SeaTalkng (ethernet) only between two MFDs and the RADAR, and an NMEA2000 backbone for my pi.

[davenrino]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

I had a Bad Elf that accidentally went to Davy Jones Locker over the winter, but I did not like it at all. At times it was WILDLY inaccurate, and it tended to jump around a fair bit. By that I mean my position would suddenly jump 100 ft or 1,500 ft to the side, and my COG would make wild swings.

Wow...maybe you had a defective unit. Mine was flawless except for an occasional momentary glitch. I used it on every flight for about 10 years in Hawaii, Marshall Isles, Carolinas, Micronesia and Japan with iPad's Pilot Atlas and the company iPad with cellular. The company iPad with GPS was wildly inaccurate without the Bad Elf. Bad Elf's internal antenna was amazing. My iphone GPS receives zero satellites in my Man Cave and the Bad Elf gets 12-14. I would put it by the window of the 737 until it locked on and then below in my flight bag. Still works great. Mine is the Pro not the Pro+.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

This also looks like a good option and one I'm considering for my vessel which is predominantly SeaTalk with SeaTalkng (ethernet) only between two MFDs and the RADAR, and an NMEA2000 backbone for my pi.

That Garmin GPS has a heading sensor that isn’t adequate for use by radar or autopilot. They have the GPS19 model that is equal for just GPS. I have that one and the only way to program it is by connecting it to a Garmin chartplotter.

For your situation is a specific solution: https://www.yachtd.com/products/wifi_router.html

This product has Seatalk, 2x NMEA0183, NMEA2000 and Wifi all in one. You can connect this to your Seatalk and NMEA2000 networks, then connect the GPS I linked to above and you get it all. All data from Seatalk will be on NMEA2000, NMEA0183 and wifi: every port is converting to all other ports, in both directions.

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by davenrino

Wow...maybe you had a defective unit. Mine was flawless except for an occasional momentary glitch. I used it on every flight for about 10 years in Hawaii, Marshall Isles, Carolinas, Micronesia and Japan with iPad's Pilot Atlas and the company iPad with cellular. The company iPad with GPS was wildly inaccurate without the Bad Elf. Bad Elf's internal antenna was amazing. My iphone GPS receives zero satellites in my Man Cave and the Bad Elf gets 12-14. I would put it by the window of the 737 until it locked on and then below in my flight bag. Still works great. Mine is the Pro not the Pro+.

Flying with it may smooth out those glitches considerably as you are moving significantly faster than the jumping around. Moving at 5kts is a different story.

I even left it on my patio for hours with clear view of the sky and it consistently put me about 1,500' east of my position and showed jumping around.

Their support was of no value.

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

That Garmin GPS has a heading sensor that isn’t adequate for use by radar or autopilot. They have the GPS19 model that is equal for just GPS. I have that one and the only way to program it is by connecting it to a Garmin chartplotter.

For your situation is a specific solution: https://www.yachtd.com/products/wifi_router.html

This product has Seatalk, 2x NMEA0183, NMEA2000 and Wifi all in one. You can connect this to your Seatalk and NMEA2000 networks, then connect the GPS I linked to above and you get it all. All data from Seatalk will be on NMEA2000, NMEA0183 and wifi: every port is converting to all other ports, in both directions.

Thanks for the heads up Jedi. Thats disappointing on the GPS, and the vendor was apparently clueless as I asked several questions and got the "oh yeah not a problem" lol

I have a seatalk to nmea2000 converter and already have a backbone and all my seatalk data on it, my pi with the pican hat can see it all. Already have a wifi network as well. But the GPS you linked looks good.

That said if the yacht devices item you linked to had ethernet I'd buy one as it could replace a couple of things I have now, but without it I still need to keep my current router to be able to connect to the internal interface on my ubiquiti bullet.