The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

[Nauticatarcher]

Croosing the Tasman east to west at those latitudes at that time of year is asking to have your A@#se handed to you on a plate, having fished the East Coast of Australia at that time of the year the the thing I feared the most were East Coast Lows, these form quickly can be storm force and coupled wiyh the East Coast current form very nasty uncomfortable seas. if i wanted to get to Australia during the winter I would have headed north to New Caledonia had an enjoyable break eating french Pastries stocked up on cheap french wine and then headed for Brisbane or Coffs Hbr, IMOH

[MarkJ]

Good article.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Nauticatarcher

Croosing the Tasman east to west at those latitudes at that time of year is asking to have your A@#se handed to you on a plate, having fished the East Coast of Australia at that time of the year the the thing I feared the most were East Coast Lows, these form quickly can be storm force and coupled wiyh the East Coast current form very nasty uncomfortable seas. if i wanted to get to Australia during the winter I would have headed north to New Caledonia had an enjoyable break eating french Pastries stocked up on cheap french wine and then headed for Brisbane or Coffs Hbr, IMOH

Excellent advice for anyone else wanting to do the NZed-Oz passage in winter!

Cheers,

Jim

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Guy

She was fiberglassed.

The article mentions the hull was skinned with 1/4" of glass, no mention of resin system or layup method. This is far from the Vaitses Method, and would probably only tend to accelerate the decay of the vessel without providing any real added structural integrity. Proper Vaitses sheathing of a hull this size would involve a skin layup tapering from 3/8" near the sheer to 3/4" or more at the turn of the bilge. Then screws are countersunk and fastened through the glass into the original planking and framing, followed by a few more layers of glass over all to cover the screws. Essentially you are using the original hull as a male mold. Many very old woodies have been successfully restored this way. But a 1/4" skin is not even close for a boat that size. You can see the plank lines in some of the pictures, which would not be the case if she were properly glassed. A lot of people have done this to old wooden boats and hastened their demise, it's pretty universally recognized as a mistake. Certainly hope that hasn't happened here.

[David_Old_Jersey]

No direct connection to the Nina - and only a passing connection, in being also made of wood..........but perhaps informative for those not familiar with the pitfalls of wooden boats, especially when coupled with age.

This is an official UK Marine Accident Investigation Board (MAIB) report into the sinking of a UK wooden fishing boat (3 lost) in May 2012 - the purpose of these reports are solely to learn, not as a tool for prosecution.

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...Web_Report.pdf

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...nedAnnexes.pdf

Particularly informative as have close up photos of the hull prior to the sinking taken when various repairs were undertaken in the previous couple of years, albeit vessel not recovered so only underwater shots.

I am not suggesting that the maintenance and repairs undertaken for the Nina was the same - this just a clear example of what can go wrong. and did. Also other lessons for everyone who goes to sea, whether for work or for fun - on wood or on plastic.

Also perhaps useful to note is that whilst the conclusion for the cause and events about the sinking is pretty much definitive, it is nonetheless not 100% certain - and with no survivors and the boat not recovered from the seabed can't ever be.

[bazzer]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

You can post anything you want - just that on another (this!) thread it would be less impolite.

and I too value these events as a learning tool ., even when it does upset those directly involved.

If the boat got hit by a "rogue" wave (I hate that term as suggests that bigger and more awkward waves from the set pattern are unexpected - they are to be expected, just unexpectedly ) which pitch-polled or rolled them leading to nigh on instant flooding (not a given even from those events, but apart from hatches open (unlikely) structural damage not out of the question) then she would have gone down quickly leaving no time for switching on the EPIRB..........but I think every other scenario (except run down by a ship) leaves time for at least turning on the EPIRB (even if it did not lead to a rescue), apart from one........

.....which I raise only as a learning point to consider (in the case of the Nina no actual facts to base this on, so only a possibility and not an accusation).....and that point is a Skipper who is confident in ability (and from past experience has good reason for that confidence) to sort a cascade of smaller events and which ultimately lead to the boat sinking without having set off the EPIRB......because time ran out / left too long.

From past experiences (not boat related), in a possible personal EOTW scenario it is not panic that is the problem so much as disbelief, and rather than inaction easy to get sucked into too much action (which whilst having merit is not in itself an answer to the bigger problem) - and not enough thought. The irony being that a newbie sailor scared witless in a plastic fantastic boat (no model names - Don ) may well have a better chance of rescue than a man of steel on a boat of oak with a squillion miles under the keel simply because step A would have been press the big red button.

The answer? no idea.....I doubt there is a one size fits all (scenarios) answer.

Since this thread is named after me, I think I should respond in some way.
The first thing I might ask, being a Atheist, is to keep all the prayers and other mumbo jumbo out of these threads, I'm sure there is a much better place for all that stuff

Nina has pretty lines, but that does not portray the true condition of her when she set sail. Not only is there a report from NZ of her being in poor condition but if you read Lectronic Latitude two editions ago you will see that others would see her in such great condition. What has not been reported is the fact that some while ago she was sheathed in a thin layer of GRP. Very bad. I have seen major problems with resins coming off damp wood, besides which rot can easily take place between the glass and planking. The only way to cure a leaking wooden boat is to remove rotten planks, replace corroded fasteners and re-caulk. I personally worked on the USS Constitution so I know a little about wooden boats.
I asked the previous owner, Jedi, to comment on her condition when he sold her. He so far has not replied. Storm sails that ripped? How old we're they?
When where the keel bolts last inspected? No one seems to know. Keels falling off leads to immediate capsize on. Oats of this type. This is most likely the reason that not distress was given.

The skipper/owner was just plain crazy not to have the Spot on tracking mode the whole time, or to have a type B transponder fitted, or a SSB which can transmit free daily position reports. Just relying on a sat phone is just not good enough. Just check the safety requirements of any major ocean race and you will see what they consider to be a bare minimum. What about a life raft fitted with a hydrostatic release?
Of course you do not have to have any of the above if you so choose, but consider the danger you will be putting the rescuers in if you get lost or abandon ship? Just liked being "old fashioned". The owner had plenty of money, stupid if you ask me and seemingly might have killed several others.
The sea is a very unforgiving place as I well know being around it my whole life.

As I have stated before, I hope that the boat and it's crew show up intact, but I personally realistically don't expect this to happen...
Let's learn lessons and stop this kind of experience happening again through education.......

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by bazzer

Nina has pretty lines, but that does not portray the true condition of her when she set sail.

This is word for word the summation of the Bounty.
Not only that the wooden boat aficionados over-specify looks as a sea-going attribute but they try to enforce it on others.
Theres a number of similarities with the Bounty: Sailing in the wrong season or sailing into bad weather; questionable structural integrity; a skipper of strong personality; and a crew that is not fully aware of the boats condition nor the challenges in reality ahead of them.

Maybe none of those points as strong as on the Bounty, but all to be considered, and still considered if the boat is found afloat and crew well.

Mark

[MarkJ]

From the other thread.

For those interested regarding Nina's engine..


Hi Cherie,
David had done a very good job on the install and had adhered to as much of
the advice that we gave him as he was able to
There was a few things such as the water intake that was not big enough to
allow maximum water flow to the engine at full throttle
Also the fuel lines were not of the correct size. These things would need to
be rectified before the warranty was signed off
The engine was quite capable of attaining full power however because of the
drive line alignment issues david chose not to go any higher in the rpm
On the sea trial the vessel motored at 6.5knots at 1600rpm. David was happy
running at a lower rpm that gave them 4-5 knots.
David was aware of the issues with the warranty and drive line and as he was
out of time he decided to address these issues when the vessel was slipped
in Australia
The issues with the fuel lines and water intake would not have caused any
problems at the lower rpm.
I trust this will help
Regards Bruce.

At least we know now why the last SMS said going 4 knots.

[Andrew B.]

So your allowed to stand on your soapbox, and complain about people
offering prayers, but those that offer them according to you should go
to a "much better place for all that stuff" ? Any other request ?

If you have any other concerns that offend your sensitive feelings
please summit them to the World Wide Web. And don't worry about that
old out dated freedom of speech thing. I must assume that I missed
the announcement that put Atheist in charge of what can be said, wrote,
and believed. Please forgive me...

Originally Posted by bazzer

Since this thread is named after me, I think I should respond in some way.
The first thing I might ask, being a Atheist, is to keep all the prayers and other mumbo jumbo out of these threads, I'm sure there is a much better place for all that stuff...................

.......

[bazzer]

Originally Posted by Andrew B.

So your allowed to stand on your soapbox, and complain about people
offering prayers, but those that offer them according to you should go
to a "much better place for all that stuff" ? Any other request ?

If you have any other concerns that offend your sensitive feelings
please summit them to the World Wide Web. And don't worry about that
old out dated freedom of speech thing. I must assume that I missed
the announcement that put Atheist in charge of what can be said, wrote,
and believed. Please forgive me...

You might have missed the point, this thread is about sailing safety, not your religious beliefs, or mine for that matter, but pray away if it makes you feel better.
But carry on bashing my posts. Oh, I don't have any sensitive feelings at all.

[Andrew B.]

Oh I know the point of the tread, but thanks. And certainly wouldn't dare
"bash" your post. Even if It did start with a nasty azz slap to anyone that may
be religious, and/or believe in prayer. I guess I was, and am confused
about why you felt the need to make your point about prayer, and other
mumbo jumbo. Some people believe prayer might help in any kind of
situation, including 'sailing safety'. If you want to deny that belief for
yourself, well okay, but it's kind of selfish to deny others that privilege. IMHO.

Originally Posted by bazzer

You might have missed the point, this thread is about sailing safety, not your religious beliefs, or mine for that matter, but pray away if it makes you feel better.
But carry on bashing my posts. Oh, I don't have any sensitive feelings at all.

[bazzer]

Originally Posted by Andrew B.

Oh I know the point of the tread, but thanks. And certainly wouldn't dare
"bash" your post. Even if It did start with a nasty azz slap to anyone that may
be religious, and/or believe in prayer. I guess I was, and am confused
about why you felt the need to make your point about prayer, and other
mumbo jumbo. Some people believe prayer might help in any kind of
situation, including 'sailing safety'. If you want to deny that belief for
yourself, well okay, but it's kind of selfish to deny others that privilege. IMHO.

I'm not denying anyone anything, but I will point out again, this a sailing forum so let's keep to that eh? Prayers and poetry to off topic sections please.

[highseas]

Boats were of wood because thats all there was.Kind of like the sextant,thats all there was.These days there are safer ways to get there,and to not use them and in turn put others at risk,is unseamanlike.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by highseas

Boats were of wood because thats all there was.Kind of like the sextant,thats all there was.These days there are safer ways to get there,and to not use them and in turn put others at risk,is unseamanlike.

Are you saying that going to sea in a timber boat is in itself "unseamanlike"?

Get real...

Jim

[s/v 'Faith']

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Are you saying that going to sea in a timber boat is in itself "unseamanlike"?

Get real...

Jim

I agree Jim. What an absurd statement!