The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

Its Monday MORNING quarterbacking - because most football games are played on Sunday (there is one on Monday night, but the saying ignores it).

It don't matter - it ain't proper football anyway .

[deepblueln]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Try the Sydney Hobart race in the 90's, They lost about 8 boats, Same ocean as the Nina is floating around in, She is a bit further to the north,

There is a video of the Ocean conditions at the time of the rescue from the helicopter,

Tasman Sea, Think, Northern Atlantic or Bering Straight in the middle of winter,
Thats the Tasman and Bass Straight for you,

Yes, I'm familiar with that one, and the Fastnet one, know someone who came through Queen's Birthday storm (and they knew some of the boats didn't make it), and probably forgetting still more... the racing boats are different, they don't have as much option of hiding and then trying again a few days later, in better conditions. Just wondering if there's any idea out there if this is a regular occurrence or rare... I assume there's no monitoring agency with accurate stats

[Mr B]

Thats made me think,

There have been quite a number of boat losses along the bottom east coast of OZ and up the Tasman over the last year or so,

A couple of ships as well from memory,

And 3 or 4 that left from NZ, One was a NZ rescue a month or so ago,

A 40 foot Cat broke up on a Gippsland beach, That Cat in the Coral sea they abandoned and came ashore later in Qld,

The Cyclones up north took out heaps of boats all along the coast, Thats also the Tasman till it becomes the Coral Sea,

[hoolie]

To focus a bit on what this thread should be about -

The ill-fated UK Nimrod MRA4 maritime reconnaissance aircraft was fitted with an AIS receiver, and unlike the usual VHF range limitations of AIS was able to pick up transmissions out to its radio horizon. At high altitude this was well over 150 miles.

So having an AIS transmitter would seriously help an SAR aircraft similarly fitted and make it easier to rapidly search a large area in circumstances like the Niña.

I have an AIS receiver, but I'm now going to upgrade to a Class B transmitter!

ps Of course Class B is lower power so I guess range would be more limited, but ... ... ...

[nimblemotors]

The boat had an eprib, if it wasn't activated then it is hard to see how any other technology would have saved them, if the ship is sunk.
Losing power can make most electronics unusable.
A lightning strike can fry all electronics even battery powered ones,
was lightning a part of the weather?

Perhaps it is something to prepare for by having a metal cage and put an eprib and handheld VHF inside.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by hoolie

ps Of course Class B is lower power so I guess range would be more limited, but ... ... ...

I dont think range is that much limited by being Class B.
I had someone track me at 18nms and I thought that excellent.
Currently as I am in one spot for the whole hurricane season I have swiched antennas and my VHF radio is at mast top and my AIS is on my stern rail.

I still receive ships at 20nms, but dont know how well I am transmitting.

[Viking Sailor]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

You can post anything you want - just that on another (this!) thread it would be less impolite.

and I too value these events as a learning tool ., even when it does upset those directly involved.

If the boat got hit by a "rogue" wave (I hate that term as suggests that bigger and more awkward waves from the set pattern are unexpected - they are to be expected, just unexpectedly ) which pitch-polled or rolled them leading to nigh on instant flooding (not a given even from those events, but apart from hatches open (unlikely) structural damage not out of the question) then she would have gone down quickly leaving no time for switching on the EPIRB..........but I think every other scenario (except run down by a ship) leaves time for at least turning on the EPIRB (even if it did not lead to a rescue), apart from one........

.....which I raise only as a learning point to consider (in the case of the Nina no actual facts to base this on, so only a possibility and not an accusation).....and that point is a Skipper who is confident in ability (and from past experience has good reason for that confidence) to sort a cascade of smaller events and which ultimately lead to the boat sinking without having set off the EPIRB......because time ran out / left too long.

From past experiences (not boat related), in a possible personal EOTW scenario it is not panic that is the problem so much as disbelief, and rather than inaction easy to get sucked into too much action (which whilst having merit is not in itself an answer to the bigger problem) - and not enough thought. The irony being that a newbie sailor scared witless in a plastic fantastic boat (no model names - Don ) may well have a better chance of rescue than a man of steel on a boat of oak with a squillion miles under the keel simply because step A would have been press the big red button.

The answer? no idea.....I doubt there is a one size fits all (scenarios) answer.

There is of course the possibility that the EPIRB was not heard because it was defective. It happens! When I tested my brand new unit it was completely dead. So, the concept that having an EPIRB aboard means that you are assured of being found is simply false.

[captain58sailin]

I am always for analyzing what went wrong. I adhere to the philosophy of "Fix the fault, not the blame". I always take a cold hard look at what I have done that didn't have the expected outcome. I find it difficult to second guess a ship lost at sea, when one doesn't have any idea of the circumstances. First and foremost, it is far from certain that the vessel is lost as of yet. 2nd the opinions that I have seen regarding the condition of the vessel are suspect at best. I would be willing to wager a fair amount of money that the folks describing the vessel as hogged, wouldn't know the difference between hogging and sagging. The fact she has not been pulled in 3 years is of no real import, as others pointed out in another thread, there can be a lot of damage done to a wooden boat by hauling her, depending on the method. As far as the electronics go, they are a fickle servant at best. When they are good, they are very, very, good. And when they are bad, they don't even make good toilet paper.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

If it was me out there you would be critically analysing every decision I had made (including my boat!)

I would just be filing it away in my mind as another "I read about something like this once".

[model 10]

There is a very good article in the latest Lectronic Lattitude

[minaret]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

I am always for analyzing what went wrong. I adhere to the philosophy of "Fix the fault, not the blame". I always take a cold hard look at what I have done that didn't have the expected outcome. I find it difficult to second guess a ship lost at sea, when one doesn't have any idea of the circumstances. First and foremost, it is far from certain that the vessel is lost as of yet. 2nd the opinions that I have seen regarding the condition of the vessel are suspect at best. I would be willing to wager a fair amount of money that the folks describing the vessel as hogged, wouldn't know the difference between hogging and sagging. The fact she has not been pulled in 3 years is of no real import, as others pointed out in another thread, there can be a lot of damage done to a wooden boat by hauling her, depending on the method. As far as the electronics go, they are a fickle servant at best. When they are good, they are very, very, good. And when they are bad, they don't even make good toilet paper.

Note that other critical wooden structures like bridges are required to be inspected at a minimum frequency of every six months due to potential exposure to Teredo and Gribble. This is because Teredo can completely destroy a large structure like a bridge in six months if an infestation is allowed to grow. Three years is far too long in the tropics IMHO, bottom paint is good for only two at best. This means the worm could easily have had its way with her for a year or more. Unless she was coppered.

[model 10]

She was fiberglassed.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Guy

She was fiberglassed.

Well that's a whole different bag of feed. If she had the full on "Vaitses Method", it should have been impossible for her to hog. Or spring a plank, etc.

[captain58sailin]

I worked a cypress wood hull that had been in the water constantly for 3 years with no care given, and the teredo worms had barely made any ingress, but that might have been a feature of cypress. I am not all that conversant with southern water pests. Since the hull was fiber glassed, I guess it renders that a moot point.

[Zednotzee]

Very interesting comments in today's 'Lectronic Latitude:

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude