Survey with no sea trial, surveyor on Long Island, NY

[Cheechako]

I think it would be rare for a seller to put up with the hold back of funds. But you never know.

[loneshark64]

Originally Posted by CarlF

You're buying an old boat - presumably at a good price that reflects that it's an old boat. Even with a full survey, you'll find plenty wrong over the first 12 months of ownership. And every survey misses things. So don't put too much emphasis on a sea trial.

I think the role of a survey in this old a boat is to find the big stuff. Rot in the decks. Serious structural problems. Past partial sinking. Evidence of serious accident. All of these are better done on the hard.

The most important part of an engine "survey" is whether it will start easily and run without a ridiculous amount of smoke. Does it go into forward and reverse. Does cooling water come out? Does the alternator charge? Does the engine/shaft shake badly? Is the prop shaft bent? Do any fluids drip out? That you can all do on the hard.

The WOT throttle test basically tells you if the boat is overpropped or has a cooling problem. I wouldn't walk away from a boat because of that. At the worst it would be $1000 - and unlikely.

So I think a plan of a low RPM run on the hard is a good one (the hose should not pressurize the cooling - let it fill a bucket and pickup from the bucket).

I agree with this. Under the circumstances you should be reasonable about what can be surveyed and realistic about the fact that you will have some stuff to fix over the next 18mo no matter what. Just make sure the engine starts and have the surveyor focu on the rest of the boat. I wouldn’t do the holdback. Do the survey, buy the boat and get on with it

I have done two surveys with Steve Bunnell. He is on Cape Cod but drives to Long Island. You may have to cover travel costs.

BUNNELL MARINE CONSULTING
POBox734
Marstons Mills, MA 02648
(508) 681-9399

Here are some others from a list I made when I was doing the last boat purchase. I don’t know these guys.

Raymond Clifford
Clifford Marine Services
rcliff60@yahoo.com
914 419-7926
58 High View Ter
Pleasantville NY 10570-1227

David McClay
QBC Marine Services
(631) 757-9415
57 Maple Ave
Northport, NY 11768-1937

Joseph P. Oldak
192 Farragut Circle
New Rochelle, New York 10801
Work Phone: 914-589-0104
Email: marinesurveyor@farragutmarine.com

Peter A. Luciano
Stay-New Yacht Services
50 Davenport Avenue, 2F
New Rochelle, New York 10805 United States
Work Phone: 914-260-6092
Email: sloopquest@aol.com

James Curry
5 Pleasant Hill Lane
Clinton, Connecticut 06413 United States
Work Phone: 860-669-3119
Fax: 860-664-9396
Email: jcurry01@snet.net

C. Harvey Thompson
76 North State Street
Ansonia, Connecticut 06401 United States
Work Phone: 203-735-5229
Cell: 203-305-8128

Barnaby C. F. Blatch
Atlantic Marine Survey
5 Elizabeth Court
Mystic, Connecticut 06355 United States
Work Phone: 860-536-4354
Cell: 860-460-0060
Email: bblatch0@gmail.com

[basssears]

Lonehark64 makes good points. I was told when we bought our Gulf to budget 30% of purchase price after the fact just to fix things, and it did actually even turn out to be a little bit more than that. As far as a surveyor, and paying travel costs, if you know someone's good those travel costs are the best dollars you could ever spend... I paid a well-regarded surveyor to travel to survey a boat I did not end up buying, not buying that boat was perhaps one of the best things I've ever done...

[JeffDPT]

David McClay is well known on LI and his name came up several times when I was asking for referrals. Very thorough and reasonable when he did my boat.

[Jebtrois]

Unless the water is frozen, which it is not yet, I see no reason not to do a complete survey and sea trial. Winterizing is not time consuming or expensive even if paid for by the buyer. Don't you want to be sure she doesn't leak? Or list? Yes, there will be items that are missed on the survey, but I would not buy a used car without taking it for a spin around the block. Why would I do that with a more expensive item like a boat?

Don't let your anxiousness drive you to a decision you would not tolerate in other circumstances. Like you have said, it is late in the season. You have lots of time for another boat if this is not the right one.
JEB

[ksuderman]

Thanks for all the replies; some really good info and ideas, and I think I agree with everything said. I will definitely be contacting Steve Bunnell and David McClay about a survey if we decide to proceed; I will actually be moving the boat to Cape Cod, so maybe Steve can help me move the boat and he gets a ride home in the process.

This is the newest "old boat" that I am looking at and I am budgeting 30-50% for upgrades. The ad does not mention the age of sails or rigging so I assume they are original and need to be replaced. My biggest concern is the engine, it seems to have ALOT of hours for the age, hence my concern about the lack of a sea trial. I like CarlF's idea about making the conditions for the hold back very specific. i.e. after reaching operating temperature the engine can hold max RPMs for five minutes without overheating, the rudder doesn't fall off and can steer the boat in both directions, etc. I would hope that any major defects would be found when running on the hard, so $5k-ish is likely more reasonable. But as has been suggested I won't get hung up on that.

I have already walked away from four boats that I really really wanted to be The One, and while I want this boat to be The One I have no qualms walking away from this one as well.

Originally Posted by Cheechako

I think it would be rare for a seller to put up with the hold back of funds. But you never know.

It was my understanding this was relatively standard. I'm working with a licensed broker so I am sure he is familiar with the practice. The funds are put in escrow so it's not like I can just decide not to pay it on a whim.

Originally Posted by altinr

There is no reason you can’t do a Sea trail in early December on Long Island sound, as long as the water isn’t frozen.

The broker said the yard is only hauling boats not launching right now. I suspect it has other boats parked in front so launching may be be non-trivial. I will find out in a few hours!

Originally Posted by tiopirata

I am a vessel surveyor. I would not allow a sailing vessel's auxiliary engine to be run for 10 minutes at wide open throttle.

Yes, I was mis-remembering the article on sea trials I had read.

Once at full operating temperature we''ll ask for a full throttle run for 5 minutes and again monitor systems and gauges during that time, noting anomalies. I often meet with resistance from sellers on full throttle runs but all I can do is ask, I can't give orders. If she can't handle full throttle for 5 minutes, something is wrong.

[ksuderman]

We may have a winner.

Interestingly, the broker also recommended David McClay as a surveyor and said he was the surveyor for the current owner when he purchased the boat. I hope that is a good thing. I asked about a hold back and the broker doesn't have a problem with that, but would have to get the owner to agree. The broker said the amount of the hold back is typically negotiated after the survey is complete.

Now to go insurance shopping.

[basssears]

Originally Posted by ksuderman

We may have a winner.

Interestingly, the broker also recommended David McClay as a surveyor and said he was the surveyor for the current owner when he purchased the boat. I hope that is a good thing. I asked about a hold back and the broker doesn't have a problem with that, but would have to get the owner to agree. The broker said the amount of the hold back is typically negotiated after the survey is complete.

Now to go insurance shopping.

Just FYI, normally not considered best idea to use a surveyor that the broker recommends. If you're getting recommendations from other, uninvolved parties that bring up the same name then that changes it, but absent any other input potential for conflict of interest is high.


-- Bass


(P.S. To be clear I'm pointing this out as a general info piece, no slight or implication intended on either your broker or Mr McClay)

[ksuderman]

Originally Posted by basssears

Just FYI, normally not considered best idea to use a surveyor that the broker recommends.

Yes, I've heard the same thing, but David was recommended in a post above so I should be good.

[Scrimshaw4]

All surveys need both an in and out of water inspection / sea trial paid for by the prospective buyer. The negotiated item would be in this case the cost of re winterizing the engine, which should be nominal. Repowering is more like $35K+. No reason you can't pick a good weather day to launch for sea trial as long as the yard can get to the boat. It all depends on the owners motivation to sell. JMHO

[psk125]

If you insist on a sea trial "now", don't forget that you will have to be willing to pay to launch the boat, pay the surveyor for the sea trial, pay for re-hauling and then re-winterizing the engine pending the closing. It might be cheaper to wait til spring and hold things in escrow.

[Paul L]

You could switch this purchase around and instead of putting the risk on the seller, you put it on you, the buyer. Since you probably can't do anything with the boat till spring, you could put in an offer pending sea trial ( and all other standard pendings). You would put down a non-refundable deposit, say $5,000. This takes the boat off the market till a sea trial can be done in the fall. At that point you can move forward with the deal, renegotiate based on findings or bailout.

If it were me, I'd have to really want this boat to take this approach and have reason to believe there might be underlying issues somewhere with the boat.

[Tonali99]

Originally Posted by ksuderman

They will start the engine, but can I ask them to run WOT for 10 minutes?

Make certain you have a water hose at the raw water intake.

[ed boyle]

I sold a boat in February once with a sea trial, actually had to break ice at the lift to launch. If this seller wants to sell and is hiding nothing he will and should do the sea trial. If the boat is buried in the yard that is the sellers fault and problem.

[Nibiruwayne]

Originally Posted by CarlF

You're buying an old boat - presumably at a good price that reflects that it's an old boat. Even with a full survey, you'll find plenty wrong over the first 12 months of ownership. And every survey misses things. So don't put too much emphasis on a sea trial.

I think the role of a survey in this old a boat is to find the big stuff. Rot in the decks. Serious structural problems. Past partial sinking. Evidence of serious accident. All of these are better done on the hard.

The most important part of an engine "survey" is whether it will start easily and run without a ridiculous amount of smoke. Does it go into forward and reverse. Does cooling water come out? Does the alternator charge? Does the engine/shaft shake badly? Is the prop shaft bent? Do any fluids drip out? That you can all do on the hard.

The WOT throttle test basically tells you if the boat is overpropped or has a cooling problem. I wouldn't walk away from a boat because of that. At the worst it would be $1000 - and unlikely.

So I think a plan of a low RPM run on the hard is a good one (the hose should not pressurize the cooling - let it fill a bucket and pickup from the bucket).

Be sure the sails are brought out and look them over carefully spread out on a floor. Have the rig inspected.

And try to negotiate some money set aside until the engine can be run at sea - but I wouldn't walk away from an otherwise good boat just for that. It will be easier to negotiate this if it is specific - such as "test that engine can be run at WOT". Not just "sea trial"

The owner will want to be paid to re-winterize the engine afterwards - but that's less than the cost to haul and splash for a sea trial.

I've bought with a sea-trial surveyor onboard first, then on the hard to complete the survey. Then I've bought ( my largest purchase) with a survey on the hard and then dropped her in a slip to check for any serious hose or leak issues, ran the engine to check the sea chest, wet exhaust, all with the same surveyor onboard, checked the sails at the dock, rigging, then skipped a sea trial. In our case the boat was going in the water anyway.
Point is : the owner is the one burdened with where she is and winterizing. If you can wait, put up the least refundable to hold her until you can float her, keep looking in the meantime. Unlikely seller can do anything until spring.
If you start to walk away and have to turn around one more time to gaze on her, she's the one.