Starlink RV vs. Iridium GO! exec

[clamshack]

Originally Posted by wholybee

There is no "commercial" maritime product. Just the maritime product. And as we know, it is MUCH more expensive. Not only is the hardware more expensive, but the service is as well. So, with the increasing number of boats buying the RV service and going 500 miles offshore, or further, Starlink is losing money by not forcing them to the maritime product. Anecdotal observation, but there are a number of people in the Facebook groups that switched from $10,000 per month viasat services to the Starlink RV service. Why would Starlink allow that instead of pushing them to the higher cost option? Why would ANYONE buy the maritime service if the RV service works just as well? There is a cost to providing services over the ocean and worldwide, that is higher than the cost over land in a single country. That is why the service costs more.

Using the RV service out of the TOCs is a government regulatory violation.
How the provider, government and individual customers will be affected is up in the air. I wouldn't expect any near term changes.

Although a huge red flag would be a corporate customer using a consumer service or reselling it. If a super yacht migrated from Viasat to Starlink RV they will be among the first to be fined. If that day ever comes.

Anyway, let's leave the "anecdotal observation" in the toilet where it belongs.

[donradcliffe]

I'm delivering a Starlink equipped boat on Baja Bash in mid January. I hear from the boat owner that Starlink is a real power hog and it is about 70% reliable 50 miles offshore. I'll log in to CF and give you some first hand anecdotal observations

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by CarlF

I have yet to see a report of a Starlink dish not working in waves. The phased array antenna can adjust the beam far faster than any wave can move your boat. Nor have I heard of one damaged by salt spray. Starlink put a lot of though into water protection. The cable connections are a thing of beauty with double gaskets. Heavy clouds and rain seems to have less effect on Starlink connectivity than Iridium Go.

Starlink has committed to global mid ocean service for the Maritime service for non-polar regions by end of Q1 2023. This is because they have launched enough laser equiped satelites that ground station proximity is no longer a factor.

I do think it's likely that RV will be geofenced soon to within 10 miles or so of shore - but the most recent terms of service describe an add on feature called "ocean data" that will be sold by the GB. No pricing for this but this may provide good mid-ocean service for RV who want 10GB of data not 1 terabyte as offered on Maritime. It's just conjecture but perhaps $30 for 10GB like a cell phone. Not for streaming movies but email, weather, messaging, voice, and web browsing will be much better than Iridium GO. It will be interesting to see what is announced.

Starlink is such an incredible speed improvement over Iridium GO that I can't imagine not having one aboard in a crossing. And it's cheaper.

Starlink is just as good if not better than Iridium GO as a distress communications system up to the point where you might be abandoning ship. It can be set up to run off 12V instead of through an inverter. When abandoning ship Iridium Go is not really a good solution either as it's not really meant to go swimming. I carry an InReach as my backup distress communications system and an EPIRB plus PLB's and AIS MOB's for each crew as the backup to the backup.

This will all change again in a few years as Apple and Tmobile roll out their cell phone satelite services. Tmobile will use the next generation of Starlink satelite that starts launching this month. Apple is already dispatching SAR helicopters to Iphone distress communications from cars and Tmobile is promising better than 3Mbps. These will kill both InReach and Iridium GO just like Starlink is killing ViaSat on megayachts.

Having an ocean data option seems reasonable and in line with some sort of geofencing that I believe is inevitable. I had not heard of that yet, but it is very promising. As a user of both Iridium and SL, I am not ready to trust SL for emergency comms. Just sitting in my slip, with no motion or obstructions, I have too many outages to want to rely on it.

The Iridium Go is waterproof to IP 65. It is designed to go with you in a life raft. The Starlink dish IP54. The Iridium is also battery powered, so you can still call for help if you have a major systems failure. And the Iridium has an SOS button and includes search and rescue services.

I would not expect an RV Starlink to survive a knockdown or breaking waves landing on top of it. Both are real world scenarios that long distance sailors need to assume will happen eventually and be prepared for. Neither of those are abandon ship situations. The thing is, Starlink is better at emergency communications, until it's an emergency. Getting pooped on, dish damaged. Knocked down, dish damaged. Main power failure, Starlink out. Dismasted, dish (probably) gone. Most situations I can think of where I need to call for help, my Starlink would be out. Maybe if you call for help when it isn't really an emergency, but if I call for help, I really have a problem.

Then there is general reliability. Sure, it works up to 600 miles offshore according to some reports. It works on Vanuatu, reportedly. But is coverage continuous, or are there holes? Is it 24/7, or will it be out for a few hours now and then during some system issue. That happened several times to me, once lasting about 12 hours, and confirmed by down detector to be worldwide. It just isn't there _yet_. I'm sure someday, with different hardware and bugs worked out of the laser links it will be suitable for emergency maritime communications. But not today.

In no way will an Iridium replace Starlink. And I would certainly consider Starlink better for normal day to day communications. But, if you have Starlink, that doesn't alleviate the need for some additional emergency communications. That doesn't need to be a Go, but _something_ more than just a Starlink.

[clamshack]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I'm delivering a Starlink equipped boat on Baja Bash in mid January. I hear from the boat owner that Starlink is a real power hog and it is about 70% reliable 50 miles offshore. I'll log in to CF and give you some first hand anecdotal observations

Sounds about right. Turn it off when you aren’t using it. :-)

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Because they sell a maritime product. As soon as they realize the Maritime product isn't selling well because everyone is buying the cheaper RV product, you can expect the RV product will be restricted.

They very well also might disable service on dishes that have had the motors disconnected.

All speculation, but it would be naive to rely on it not happening.

Reality is offshore cruisers are such a tiny percentage of the market...they aren't going to bother restricting.

Coastal cruisers are hard to distinguish from RV users and there is no advantage in making them angry.

[alctel]

Starlink is very fast but uses a lot of power and doesn't work everywhere and like some others here I feel like they might start restricting service or increasing prices once they get more established.

If you wanna stream netflix or something in an anchorage
and you can meet the power requirements there is nothing else that can really do that but I wouldn't use it as your sole source of weather.

[Idaho]

I chose IrGo in Nov 22 because Starlink was not up to my needs, because my plans include Easter Island and French Polynesia. There will be many weeks and months at sea with no SL connection.

Since then, while cruising the Sea of Cortez, I have seen that about 30-40% of cruisers have Starlink. Anchoring close by, and politely asking for their password, has nearly always worked to use their SL wifi for a few days.

Buying RV Starlink in Mexico, rather than in the USA, is about a 40% cost savings because the system and monthly billing are priced appropriately for different countries and economies.

IrGo has many limitations, and I have experienced many times when the apps just refuse to connect, especially when trying to send or receive email.

The newer options may easily supersede Iridium Go, and Starlink may eventually be usable anywhere on the planet. But in Nov 22, I chose IrGo.

[Madehn]

I am thinking hard about the same issue and leaning toward starlink rv. Question can the starlink antenna be located below decks? It works ok for my secondary gps will it work for starlink? Also what are the details on converting it to 12 volt ? Thanks in advance.

[jordanbigel]

Originally Posted by Madehn

I am thinking hard about the same issue and leaning toward starlink rv. Question can the starlink antenna be located below decks? It works ok for my secondary gps will it work for starlink? Also what are the details on converting it to 12 volt ? Thanks in advance.

No. Must have clear view of sky.

[CarlF]

Having looked at the Starlink standard antenna waterproofing pretty carefully, I think it would survive storm condiions at least as well as a Raymarine radar. The Starlink cables have impressive cable connections that are deeply seated with double gaskets - better than Raymarine or Garmin offers.

Even more waterproof and robust is the new flat mount HP dish that costs $2500. This is designed for ship mounting and looks like it could take a serious storm. You can use this dish with the $135/month RV subscription so the monthly cost is not unreasonable.

That said, Starlink should not be your only offshore communication system. But as a backup, I think the InReach is a far better choice than IridumGo - mostly because it doesn't require a seperate cell phone. It's also much cheaper.

Once you have Starlink you would only be using Iridium or InReach as a backup if Starlink failed. Why spend so much per month for an Iridium GO that would hopefully never be needed?

And finally, Starlink is still rolling out ocean service. If you need to cross the Pacific right now, it's not ready. By next March it should be in place. There's no reason to think service will be "spotty" or unreliable after March - that has never been the case ashore once Starlink is officially available.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by Madehn

I am thinking hard about the same issue and leaning toward starlink rv. Question can the starlink antenna be located below decks? It works ok for my secondary gps will it work for starlink? Also what are the details on converting it to 12 volt ? Thanks in advance.

Most likely not. If your deck is thin fiberglass and without a plywood core, it might work. But in general, it needs to be outside. The signal is not like GPS or Iridium and it needs a clear view.

Converting to 12V is possible, but not simple. You need to build a semi-custom POE injector. Available POE injectors do not supply enough power. You will need a 12V to ~54V power supply capable of about 150W. Starlink also puts power on non-standard pins, though it otherwise conforms to T568B signaling. So, you will need cut the Starlink cable, and wire it to the POE injector such that several wires cross going into the injector, and then cross back to normal after the injector.

Many people have done it, but you will void the warranty, and if you are not decent with electronics and networking probably should not attempt it. You will save a few watts of power vs using an inverter, but not a whole lot.

Many people on boats also cut it up to disconnect the motors, and build a custom mount that holds it flat, facing straight up instead of tilting toward the poles.(North or South). Without that, the dish will attempt to turn as you sail, and you will have many signal dropouts. Also voids the warranty and is a violation of TOS and government regulations. But if you want it to work during a passage it's necessary.

*edit: Or get the $2500 dish with the RV service. That dish is designed for the task and needs no modification.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Having looked at the Starlink standard antenna waterproofing pretty carefully, I think it would survive storm condiions at least as well as a Raymarine radar. The Starlink cables have impressive cable connections that are deeply seated with double gaskets - better than Raymarine or Garmin offers.

Even more waterproof and robust is the new flat mount HP dish that costs $2500. This is designed for ship mounting and looks like it could take a serious storm. You can use this dish with the $135/month RV subscription so the monthly cost is not unreasonable.

That said, Starlink should not be your only offshore communication system. But as a backup, I think the InReach is a far better choice than IridumGo - mostly because it doesn't require a seperate cell phone. It's also much cheaper.

Once you have Starlink you would only be using Iridium or InReach as a backup if Starlink failed. Why spend so much per month for an Iridium GO that would hopefully never be needed?

And finally, Starlink is still rolling out ocean service. If you need to cross the Pacific right now, it's not ready. By next March it should be in place. There's no reason to think service will be "spotty" or unreliable after March - that has never been the case ashore once Starlink is officially available.

The $2500 dish is absolutely up to the task. And yes I believe it is available with the same RV plan at $135 per month. That is the dish to get, for sure. The standard dish, not a chance it will survive a storm. It isn't the water proofing, it is the strength of the pole and motors. It is designed to survive 65mph winds. But that is only wind. Add a breaking wave on top of it with that wind, and it's a gonner.

And as a backup, no it doesn't need to be a Go! and an Inreach would probably be fine. I can only tell you why I sold my Inreach in 2019. I bought it when it was Delorme, and it worked great. Then Garmin got ahold of it. Before each crossing, I set up and tested tracking, messaging, etc. About halfway through the passage, it would stop working. Family panicked when I "dropped off the map" but fortunately because I also had a Go! no search and rescue operation was launched. When I made landfall, I called Garmin support, was told they did some upgrade, and I needed to connect to the Internet and "resync" my device. This happened for 3 crossings in a row. I bitched at Garmin and demanded a refund of service for the several months it failed on me. They refused and claimed the service was fine, I just needed to resync my device each time to get it working again. So.... Bye Bye Garmin, not going there again. What use is an emergency communication device that will randomly stop working mid passage and require Internet to get working again.

My next crossing, which is a few years off as I got a job recently, I will probably have Starlink with the $2500 dish, and a spot or "Inreach-like but not owned by Garmin" device. I also carry EPIRBS and PLBs, so should be well covered. I would also be ditching the SSB which I hardly ever used.

[Scott Berg]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Reality is offshore cruisers are such a tiny percentage of the market...they aren't going to bother restricting.

Coastal cruisers are hard to distinguish from RV users and there is no advantage in making them angry.

Actually that is why they would; there are more large yachts and many more ships who will happily pay for the ocean service as a faster competitor to ViaSat. The cost for open ocean coverage is higher then coastal by an order of magnitude due to the laser link satellites that are required. My bet is that they release a smaller, 12/24v marine antenna for coastal sailing and fence in the ocean for their open system and have an (expensive) by the GB option for smaller users with speed throttling. I spent a career in this world and worked with a lot of carriers. StarLink just can't sell one system to MSC or Pioneer at 5K/mon and another to you at 135/mon with the same service. And there are more ships than there are ocean cruisers. In the long run I think for coastal sailing it will be wonderful as it is now, but the 300nm offshore days will come to an end on current contacts. If you read the fine print you're already violating the terms of the contract. Like a lot of things (like Solar) boaters are .09% of the market Decisions are made on a macro scale that doesn't take them into account. I'm sure StarLink's tech's are happy for the free beta testing they're getting but I'm counting on a limitation in the future. That isn't a bad thing, just a thing,

Oh, and another issue; what happens when a country asks them to block you an an anchorage because your service is competing with their local common carriers. The ITU has some regs on this but they're a long way from being updated to deal with modern technology.

Not saying don't buy/use StarLink, just go into it with an informed and open mind and read the agreement; those limiting clauses are there for a reason...

Oh, and I predict the largest customer will be transoceanic aircraft reselling the bandwidth aboard; United, American, or British Airways could negotiate quite a deal and high speed will be available on most flights... as a long time IT consultant I'd have loved that!

[jordanbigel]

Originally Posted by wholybee

The $2500 dish is absolutely up to the task. And yes I believe it is available with the same RV plan at $135 per month. That is the dish to get, for sure. The standard dish, not a chance it will survive a storm. It isn't the water proofing, it is the strength of the pole and motors. It is designed to survive 65mph winds. But that is only wind. Add a breaking wave on top of it with that wind, and it's a gonner.

And as a backup, no it doesn't need to be a Go! and an Inreach would probably be fine. I can only tell you why I sold my Inreach in 2019. I bought it when it was Delorme, and it worked great. Then Garmin got ahold of it. Before each crossing, I set up and tested tracking, messaging, etc. About halfway through the passage, it would stop working. Family panicked when I "dropped off the map" but fortunately because I also had a Go! no search and rescue operation was launched. When I made landfall, I called Garmin support, was told they did some upgrade, and I needed to connect to the Internet and "resync" my device. This happened for 3 crossings in a row. I bitched at Garmin and demanded a refund of service for the several months it failed on me. They refused and claimed the service was fine, I just needed to resync my device each time to get it working again. So.... Bye Bye Garmin, not going there again. What use is an emergency communication device that will randomly stop working mid passage and require Internet to get working again.

My next crossing, which is a few years off as I got a job recently, I will probably have Starlink with the $2500 dish, and a spot or "Inreach-like but not owned by Garmin" device. I also carry EPIRBS and PLBs, so should be well covered. I would also be ditching the SSB which I hardly ever used.

The part about the InReach is crazy - I was planning to get one as emergency backup, but now I am going to look more closely at the other not-Garmin options.

As for the ability of the SL Dish (with normal pole mount) to survive a storm at sea - I agree with you. I mounted mine at deck level just fwd the cockpit with a simple rail-mount. I've only had it a few months, but my plan is definitely to pull it and stow it below during any severe weather. It's very light so not a big deal to just yank it out and take it below. I've also installed a thru-deck RJ45 fitting (Amphenol, IP67) so I can take in the cable as well.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by Jaqun

I will be setting off next year for full-time sailing including off-shore . i am trying to decide between Starlink RV and Iridium GO! exec for offshore communications/weather systems. both are pretty expensive. I know starlink RV is not really rated for offshore but I've been hearing good things about it from people who sailed to the carribean. Iridium exec is claiming to be 40% faster. I would be interested in hearing from people preferably with firsthand experience with these systems. (not sure if Iridium has shipped yet so might be a limited sample)
Thank you in advance.

You are quite explicit in what your asking. My problem with that is that your not saying what you want from a system your asking people to compare for you.