Shorten forestay (Harken) or backstay?

[sharkdiver84]

I noticed this problem immediately after purchase. All the rigging looked good, but I didn't think to check the forestay tension. It was unbelievable loose.

Harken has a video about how to tighten the turnbuckle, but there's only a turn or two left at the bottom, and I'm struggling to get the screws out of the plate without boring them out.

I tightened the backstay to max, and it's still a bit loose for my liking. Now the question arises, which stay is too long? Shortening the backstay would be easy easier, but I assume this could mess up my sail plan by adding too much rake. How can I know for sure though where the error lies? Is there a good method to determine whether the mast is angled properly fore/aft without buying expensive tools? Would it be extremely difficult, or impossible to shorten the forestay mostly single-handed without dropping the mast? I'm presuming that means resizing the foil as well. The boat needs to be useable very soon, for as cheap as possible, but doesn't have to be ready to go around the world or race.

[fxykty]

Do you have or can you find a sail plan for your boat? That will let you work out the designed rake and prebend of the mast. In general, mast tip should be slightly behind the base or where it goes through the deck if keel stepped - this induces a bit of prebend, which helps reduce the risk of inverting the mast.

Regarding the turnbuckle on the forestay, you do realise that you turn the barrel and hold the forestay swage above the turnbuckle to prevent the forestay from turning? That means that both the top and bottom posts will shorten. But if there are only a few threads showing that indicates attempts to shorten the forestay already took place.

It sounds like your forestay needs to be shortened if you have truly cranked on all backstay possible and the forestay is still loose. Unless you shorten lots, you should not have to shorten the furling foil.

But, can you contact the previous owner and ask about this? Unless they never sailed the boat, they should have noticed the loose forestay. Something is hinky here.

Oh yeah, you can definitely disconnect the lower end of the forestay with the mast up - just lead your jib halyard to the bow and tighten it to support the mast.

[sharkdiver84]

Thanks for the advice I'm going to do more research to see if I can find a sail plan. The boat is a Downeaster 38 and I did stumble upon an owners site that might have some info.

I don't think the previous owner really sailed it much besides moving it to it's current location. I'd be amazed if it was possible to even unfurl the jib when I noticed the problem. Now it might work but I don't like it. Shaking on the stay moves it about a foot in either direction higher up. When it's calm i'm going to do the test with a weight on the halyard and see what I get out of that.

The fitting unit won't come apart because of a stuck screw, but it appears to be fully tightened. My only hope would be if the previous owner only tightened up the bottom and there is still turnbuckle left. Im debating whether it's worth potentially damaging the furling unit by drilling out the screw.

How would you go about shortening the forestay? I've installed rigging with Norsemans before, but not sure what to expect inside if the furler.

[davil]

How would you go about shortening the forestay? I've installed rigging with Norsemans before, but not sure what to expect inside if the furler.[/QUOTE]

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not a problem

Installed a new Shaefer unit in my 34 Tartan.

One man job, at the dock.

Used a halyard to secure the mast, had the Mastmate, detached the forestay, used it to measure the length for the roller furling, assembled the extrusions on the dock.

I used the Norseman as a new fitting, (measuring is crucial, take your time).

Waited for a guy walking the dock, while I was climbing the steps one hand on the steps, lifting the forestay/roller furling he was walking the unit on the dock, tied up the unit temporarily to give me pause, re attached the same pin and that was that.

Piece of cake.

good luck

[SailingHarmonie]

You are approaching this all wrong. The forestay can not be loose unless the backstay is also loose. Just cutting the forestay shorter will make a much bigger mess unless you know FOR SURE it is too long. You could end up with the mast raked forward and that would be a very bad thing for a lot of reasons.

It is possible, but very unlikely that the rig was built this way, i.e., with shrouds so long they can't be pulled tight. Much higher probability on an older boat like this is that the mast step has collapsed by a few inches. In other words, it's not the stays that are too long, but the mast that is too short! Unfortunately, this is also a much bigger problem.

This is a deckstepped mast, right? Are the supports below in perfect shape? No water damage or sagging?

Did your surveyor have anything to say about the rig?

[JBP]

The question that comes to mind is: Why is the forestay too short? Is there a mast step/compression post problem?

[Kd9truck]

There is a possibility that you have an adjustable forestay but you will have to lift the furler to see if it is. The forestay is usually the first to stretch.

Also it could be tensioned appropriately do you have experience in knowing the correct amount of tension? That sounds silly but you would be surprised, I had my furler and forestay replaced 2 years ago and it was done to spec, which had a lot less tension than I would have expected.
Congrats on the new boat
Cheers.

[sharkdiver84]

I wasn't getting notifications for the replies for some reason, glad I checked. I managed to get the compression post loose after several hours of Dremel grinding. There are a fair amount of threads still available so I'm attempting to tighten it down. I believe that the rake is reasonable from my test with the halyard, so hopefully with a maxed out backstay and forestay this boat will be able to sail. Unless it is indeed the compression post and not just stretched rigging. I did read something about that in the old survey. I made a pretty high risk investment on without a current survey, and apparently the boat had a lot of problems since then.

Problem now is I can't get the lock nuts off the base of the furler. I've identified it as a MK1 which has a simple video from Harken on how to tighten, but the bottom of my drum has a totally different setup. Instead of a lock nut and start washer there are two round threaded jam nuts that are bolted together. Removing the bolts allowed me to lossen the bottom one, but the other is indeed inside the drum and there is no way to remove it. Turning the drum with it in place isnt working. Am I correct it is another lock nut that also somehow needs to be removed, or can that be part of the body that is supposed to turn with the drum. I'm not sure if I should try forcing the drum the way one would on a seized turnbuckle, or if it needs to be removed first.

[sharkdiver84]

Never mind I was being stupid. It did manage to turn and tighten to a reasonable level after a lot of pb blaster and marine grease. Getting the bolts back into that lock ring is going to be a challenge though. Thanks for all the help, hopefully this is good enough that I can sail out of this harbor, as soon as I finish the other 5 projects that are necessary. Next up is tangs on the mast head and at least one in water thorough hull change