Refit, or quit?

[skipgundlach]

Refit, or quit?

OK, folks, it's pucker time. I need to pick some brains here. Long
read; I apologize, but those who have done extensive refits both will
understand and are those from whom I'd like some guidance...

We did, as most know, a massive bottom refit, along with a host of
other projects while Flying Pig was in the yard waiting for us to
come back from a total of 8 months OFF the boat doing 2 weddings and a
funeral and a few new grandchildren for many road trips.
Pictures: Flying Pig 2011-2012 Refit

We have also done a great number of lesser projects since that time,
as seen in the 2 subsequent galleries
(Web-Folio -- Your Portfolio on the Web), and mechanically the boat is
in great shape. All systems are sound, the sails (given that we
haven't cruised her nearly at all, more on that below) are great or
nearly unused, other than a significant panel replacement on the
Genny. Electronics are sound but none of them are current generation.

Our bottom paint finally needs refreshing, which is pretty
straightforward after a soda blast and remediation of any nicks which
might have occurred, a scuff-sand with longboards, another coat of
barrier coat (to provide tacky connection to the first layer of
bottom paint), and that part will be done.

However, it needs a full cosmetic refit, which we envision doing in
winter 2020-2021. Just where, with our enhanced deep draft, we dunno
yet, but ideally it would be somewhere near Vero Beach as that's where
Lydia's mother lives, and allow live-aboards during work.

Topsides and deck and house repaint and non-skid, the sole needs
refinishing (those parts which don't have damage need it - maybe a
layer of new?? - it's already happened in the galley with a PO), and
a touchup on brightwork in general below, along with a full headliner
and white-walled areas prep and repaint unless one got very lucky
matching 13-year old oil-based paint. Toe rail and hand rails would
be left natural if we were doing it, but every other piece of
topsides teak needs renewal (not just another coat or two).

That's a massive level of labor, let alone the cost to do so. Even if
we did it ourselves, due to the materials, it would amount to a
significant dollar amount.

Now to the real point/connection to all that.

I'm beyond unhappy with not-cruising, but that's essentially what
we've been doing, aside from the first year post-refit (that first
year was mostly dealing with stuff which broke - the
shake-and-break-down gallery). On average, over 2015/2019 (aside from
tiny trips due to meeting craftsmen, we did not cruise 2014) we might
be moving through water not in the Vero Beach Marina about 9-12 weeks
a year, less so lately, and that ignores 2014's Zero time.

The last 3 years (not counting 2020, which has had none) we've had a
single trip, each. The two years before that had 2 trips, each.

Other than the shake-and-break-down period, we've averaged about 10
weeks a year, which is distorted by the early longer periods.

That's not cutting it. And if I don't get to go on the rides, I don't
want to pay the price of admission to the amusement park, so to speak.

The "price of admission," in boat terms, is the cost and effort to
keep it up, both of which you all know is significant, and "going on
the rides" is cruising it instead of being tied to a ball in the Vero
Beach City Marina.

So (you knew I'd get here eventually, right?) I'm thinking it might be
time to get off the boat. But selling her would be enormously
enhanced by that cosmetic refit we're thinking of doing/know we have
to do, to avoid damage.

Or not.

It will be a massive job for two old folks, and cost a bundle, and
what we'd end up with would be a pretty boat with outdated
electronics. I'd classify that as cosmetically attractive but most
likely facing electronic renewal - at least 5 figures, I'd expect, if
all the things which tell me how stuff is doing, and where I'm going
(and a buncha stuff that I don't even have old gear of that folks
today might want), were bought and installed, even DIY.

Assuming restorable cosmetics, with some sole repairs, were not
refinished: what difference in value might be expected vs. newly
refreshed cosmetics? That is, no top, deck and house paint, sound
bottom but needing a new layer of barrier coat (to give the new
ablative or whatever bottom paint a connection) and bottom paint, and
an interior refresh of all painted and varnished surfaces has NOT been
done. It's not "rough" but it's definitely at EOL in some places;
what sort of value ding would that represent?

Is a cosmetic refit a recoverable expense or maybe even a profit-maker
(repaint/rebright/renew as needed will cost less than the added value
to a purchaser)? And do you have any idea what that number might be?
(Newly painted and brightworked boat value vs one which needs it).

Exhaustive spares, < 5000 hours on a 4-154 which has the typical aft
bearing/seal leak, maintenance and cruising records from 2007,
extensive tools and supplies, and a very traceable history via my
logs (my mailing list, but I've been putting them on FB for a few
years, too) should give a potential buyer a clear view of reality,
including via my gallery.

All that only makes it a more comfortable purchase, as the supplies
and spares merely enhance/encourage the view of the purchase - about
like the cosmetic refit.

So, is a cosmetic refit, DIY, even, worth doing (time, money, aches
and pains or LOTS of money and probably slightly less time if done by
a pro vs DIY) against the enhanced value to a potential buyer, and
would doing so recover the cost or more?

And, I know it shouldn't be necessary to say, but please stick to the
subject at hand: Does a cosmetic refit pay, other than to accelerate
(maybe) a sale?

Thanks. My apologies for my usual logorrhea!

L8R

Skip


Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at Web-Folio -- Your Portfolio on the Web !
Follow us at https://groups.io/g/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

The years thunder by.
The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the
shelves of patience.
Before we know it, the tomb is sealed.
- Sterling Hayden

[Lake-Effect]

Do the bottom properly, then go sail it ugly.


You have no obligation to make the boat attractive to the next owner. Or even to preserve the boat's market value. Owning a sailboat for any other reason than to be sailing is pointless.

[Pete7]

Keep it.

At another coat of bottom paint and go sailing

I certainly wouldn't soda blast the old coat off if it's in good condition and not flaky and I wouldn't add an intermediate layer either. Just wash, quick wet sand and paint away.

As for the rest, well touch up and do minor jobs as you go and enjoy the yacht that has clearly had a lot of work input into it.

Pete

[Chotu]

Don’t get caught up in cosmetic perfection if you want to keep the boat.

Forget the cosmetic enhancements and accept the boat as she is. There are already enough mechanical things to watch. You don’t need to add all that probably unnecessary cosmetic stuff to the list.

If you do that you can go sailing now. You are getting into “scope creep”. If you keep it up, you’ll basically build a brand new boat. Not the most enjoyable thing when you’re just trying to sail.

Now, if you are selling for a different reason, focus on the cosmetic, but no overhauls of anything. Leave it stock but make it look nice. Also, don’t worry about electronics. The next owner will have a different idea of what they want so it’s a complete waste of money to buy all that.

[Sailmonkey]

Our boat is the poster child for cosmetic imperfection with fully operational 100% reliable systems.

If you want to cruise some more, just think about the panga beating against the topside, or the errant line running across the bright work.

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by skipgundlach

clip

And, I know it shouldn't be necessary to say, but please stick to the
subject at hand: Does a cosmetic refit pay, other than to accelerate
(maybe) a sale?

clip

So, to those ignoring the above (do a cosmetic refit or sell as is, for whatever reasons)

Originally Posted by Pete7

Keep it.

At another coat of bottom paint and go sailing

I certainly wouldn't soda blast the old coat off if it's in good condition and not flaky and I wouldn't add an intermediate layer either. Just wash, quick wet sand and paint away.

As for the rest, well touch up and do minor jobs as you go and enjoy the yacht that has clearly had a lot of work input into it.

Pete

While I have not seen the underside for a while, I do know that the last time we were in the Bahamas I saw that there were some spots where the barrier coat was exposed. The only effective way to have bottom paint adhere to barrier coat is to prep it, put on another layer, and when it's tacky, put on the first layer of bottom paint.

So, I might just soda blast, leaving a pristine barrier coat ready for a quickie sand (maybe even with the 24 and 30 inch longboards and papers we have from our prior refit) by the new owners, if I didn't do a cosmetic refit.

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Do the bottom properly, then go sail it ugly.


You have no obligation to make the boat attractive to the next owner. Or even to preserve the boat's market value. Owning a sailboat for any other reason than to be sailing is pointless.

Heh. I wasn't thinking obligation in any way. Rather, whether it represented a further cost of sale, or if to do so would generate a sufficiently higher amount to justify that work (we can do it, for sure, but it will take longer and might not be as well done as a pro, with the offset that it would cost orders of magnitude more to have it "done" vs "do it")...

As to your closing statement, I absolutely agree, and that forms the basis of my discontent.

[Dsanduril]

With a boat, as with a house, it is very rare that you will get back your investment in upgrades or improvements at time of sale. There are a few exceptions, but not many. And if you did make back your investment it would probably only reflect the hard dollars spent, not the labor hours sweated into the refit. One opinion - if you want to sell, sell as-is and let the next owner expend the $/labor and decide what to refit.

[bdbcat]

Skip....


I feel for you. Tough decision.
My input: If you are ready to leave the boat, just leave it. Call a broker, come up with a fair value as-is, and list it.


Refitting to increase resale value is a hearbreaker. You will never, ever recover the cost in materials for a refit, never mind the labor, heartache, and time expended.


Note the change in point of view. FP is no longer "she", but is now an "it". Make the break, and don't look back.


My 2 cents.


Dave

[Calif.Ted]

Does a cosmetic refit pay, other than to accelerate
(maybe) a sale?

I think it might be worth getting the brightwork and polish/wax done, I know a guy that would buff it out and do the teak for about a boat buck that would make it shine like a new penny. I've redone boats to the point they look new, they sell quick and at top of market but I don't get back the cost or my labor.
Whenever I've bought a boat I always figured the bottom paint was my concern, not the sellers. First thing I'm gonna do is haul it and take care of the bottom regardless.

[Cheechako]

I'm thinking just use the boat. It's a common problem for many of us trying to make our boats perfect. So we spend more time boat working than sailing. Cruising will degrade any cosmetic work you do anyway.
So think in terms of getting your mindset in a place to allow your boat to be cosmetically impaired, but your mind happy. It's hard I know. Here are some alternative examples:

-People we met in the Caribe had a Taiwan built 44 pilot house boat designed by Ted Brewer. Comfortable design. They bought it as is, mechanically it was good. Aesthetically, the teak decks were lumped up a couple places. I mean like up 1/2-"+. Possibly could have had water in the core of the deck, hard to say. A few things like that were going on. They bought the boat, cruised it for 3 years. The only major expense they did was a new mainsail. They returned to Florida and sold the boat, with defects, for what they bought it for. Boat cost of cruising 3 years? Near 0. Enjoyment factor? 10

-Friends we cruised with had a custom aluminum 48 footer. They had it painted in Florida before leaving at one of the biggest most expensive yards in E. Florida. 2-3 years later they had it repainted in Trinidad. A few years later they had it painted again in Cartegena Columbia where they spent a year. Cost of cruising? VERY high.

- At one point in my life I considered buying a sound but ugly Westsail 32. Do only absolute necessities to it, then sail it to Australia/New Zealand one way. Then just sellit there at a big loss due to high import duty etc. Who cares? A cruise like that for what... $20,000? and not having to bash all the way back to the PNW?

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by Calif.Ted

I think it might be worth getting the brightwork and polish/wax done, I know a guy that would buff it out and do the teak for about a boat buck that would make it shine like a new penny. I've redone boats to the point they look new, they sell quick and at top of market but I don't get back the cost or my labor.
Whenever I've bought a boat I always figured the bottom paint was my concern, not the sellers. First thing I'm gonna do is haul it and take care of the bottom regardless.

Thanks. If I knew of such a fellow (45LOD, 13.5Beam, 4-5' Freeboard, 40' Waterline) I'd be on him in a heartbeat.

[redhead]

We have been/are exactly in your shoes. No decision feels right. We bought a hot mess and spent the first 2 years making her safe. Then new stuff that was going to make life a bit easier - windlass, refrigeration, etc. Made some mistakes along the way that cost quite a bit of money. I agree it's an uphill slog.

Now we have a sturdy and safe boat with all the cosmetic issues still ahead of us. Do we go and feel like the poor relatives or stay and fix? Looks like with the travel shutdown we'll only be making short trips here in the PNW as Canada remains closed to the US and that's where we usually go.

There's no "one answer fits all" answer. One old fisherman watched us work for a couple of years and told us "you used to have a boat that looked good from 50 yards away, now she stops looking good at 20 yards - that's progress!"

I look forward to the day I have a 10 yard boat.