Bowspirit - potentially dangerous?

[TrentePieds]

Quite so, but we are getting a long way away from what the OP asked about :-)

I think we can take it for granted that Mr. Koek is not yet au courant with such niceties as the COLREGS, and the RRS, so this video may well confirm him in his apparent fear of sprits and perhaps of sailing generally.

Let's see, rather, if we can help him towards an understanding of what is really involved in what he professes to want to do. Clearly, when, and if, he buys a cruising boat, which I believe he hasn't done yet, it will not be a boat of the calibre of the racing yachts depicted in the vid, and the vid therefore has no real relevance, though in some of us it might prompt a rueful chuckle.

Mr. Koek refers specifically to Gloucester schooners, again implying that the danger attending them may also attend our little cruising boats. The Canadian schooner Bluenose worked the Grand Banks alongside the Gloucester schooners and they were, really, all cut from the same cloth. Bluenose was 110 feet, or so, between perpendiculars and her sparred length, i.e. including the sprit, somewhat over 140 feet, i.e. her sprit alone was a long as TrentePied's length on deck! TP displaces 5 (five) tons, Bluenose displaces 255 tons.

Mr. Koek's alleged fear of sprits is absolutely unfounded.

If Mr. Koek is contemplating something like Lyle Hess' "Bristol Channel Cutter" which he, driven by nostalgia as I am, might be, then she is a seven-ton boat, a little heavier than TP, and she is 28 feet on deck with the sprit sticking out about seven feet. Not really in the same class as the Gloucester schooners :-) On the sail plan given on SailboatData, the sails that are shown tacked to the cranse iron can easily be so rigged that they can be handled from deck, as I've said before, or even from the cockpit.

The danger imparted by the sprit on such a boat is merely a danger to the pocket book. The boats Length on Deck may be 28 feet, alright, but marinas are going to charge you for a 40 foot slip!

Cheers

TrentePieds

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by MJH

You have to think in terms of DESIGN and why bowsprits were added to specific boat designs...to increase forward/total sail area while keeping the mast somewhat shorter and overall boat balance. The danger comes into play with how they are made, maintained, and operated by the crew.

In my boat selection I avoided bowsprit designs primarily to bypass the added maintenance...just one more thing that needs attention. One more tradeoff to consider in boat selection.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

Several designs are removeable for convenience sakes.
https://www.sailservice.it/portfolio...sprit/?lang=en
Bristol Channel Cutter 28 is one of those models.
SV Cloud Duster

[Martkimwat]

I had a sixteen foot on deck two-berth gaffer that had an eight foot bowsprit that extended out six foot from the bow. No way you could get out on that as the rudder would have been out of the water! But, it was fitted with a cranse iron to which the foresail Whykham-Martin Furler was attached. Made it easy to retrieve the sail, plus the sprit could be hinged up vertically when not in use thereby reducing berth space and avoiding people on the pontoon.

[CarinaPDX]

Of course there is some small increase in risk with having to go out on the bowsprit. If it is long and has no pulpit or netting then it is worth considering; short and with a pulpit it is not much of an issue. However, for those of us with hanked-on jibs it can be a miserable place to work. It was not all that unusual to be changing sails on the bowsprit when the bow fell off a wave and I was inundated with salt water - definitely not fun fully clothed and in foulies.

Greg

[Cabo Jim]

Yes, they can be dangerous, but in a fun way.

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quite so, but we are getting a long way away from what the OP asked about :-)

I think we can take it for granted that Mr. Koek is not yet au courant with such niceties as the COLREGS, and the RRS, so this video may well confirm him in his apparent fear of sprits and perhaps of sailing generally.

Let's see, rather, if we can help him towards an understanding of what is really involved in what he professes to want to do. Clearly, when, and if, he buys a cruising boat, which I believe he hasn't done yet, it will not be a boat of the calibre of the racing yachts depicted in the vid, and the vid therefore has no real relevance, though in some of us it might prompt a rueful chuckle.

Mr. Koek refers specifically to Gloucester schooners, again implying that the danger attending them may also attend our little cruising boats. The Canadian schooner Bluenose worked the Grand Banks alongside the Gloucester schooners and they were, really, all cut from the same cloth. Bluenose was 110 feet, or so, between perpendiculars and her sparred length, i.e. including the sprit, somewhat over 140 feet, i.e. her sprit alone was a long as TrentePied's length on deck! TP displaces 5 (five) tons, Bluenose displaces 255 tons.

Mr. Koek's alleged fear of sprits is absolutely unfounded.

If Mr. Koek is contemplating something like Lyle Hess' "Bristol Channel Cutter" which he, driven by nostalgia as I am, might be, then she is a seven-ton boat, a little heavier than TP, and she is 28 feet on deck with the sprit sticking out about seven feet. Not really in the same class as the Gloucester schooners :-) On the sail plan given on SailboatData, the sails that are shown tacked to the cranse iron can easily be so rigged that they can be handled from deck, as I've said before, or even from the cockpit.

The danger imparted by the sprit on such a boat is merely a danger to the pocket book. The boats Length on Deck may be 28 feet, alright, but marinas are going to charge you for a 40 foot slip!

Cheers

TrentePieds

You are quite mistaken, I started this topic as I go through the checklist at John Vigor's "Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat" and in it he gave minus points to bowspirit (along with some outdated ideas which is why I didn't quote the boat in my initial post), never seen a Bristol Channel Cutter myself but sailed a Westsail which hobbyhorses terribly and even though it wasn't a large age of sail schooner, with netting or not it would not be the place I would want to be in difficult situation, schooner or yacht, with netting or without.
I am not talking about modern racing retractable, I can see that it is necessary for some long keel design, but not necessarily a positive point for a cruising sailboat be it on mooring cost, maintenance and (potential) safety reasons.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

You are quite mistaken, I started this topic as I go through the checklist at John Vigor's "Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat" and in it he gave minus points to bowspirit (along with some outdated ideas which is why I didn't quote the boat in my initial post), never seen a Bristol Channel Cutter myself but sailed a Westsail which hobbyhorses terribly and even though it wasn't a large age of sail schooner, with netting or not it would not be the place I would want to be in difficult situation, schooner or yacht, with netting or without.
I am not talking about modern racing retractable, I can see that it is necessary for some long keel design, but not necessarily a positive point for a cruising sailboat be it on mooring cost, maintenance and (potential) safety reasons.

The problem with all those "Best Boat" checklists is that they reflect the opinion, often outdated, of the author. Their lists are things that worked for them, according to their particular prejudices and parameters. But if you take three or four of those and compare them, you'll find a huge disparity of opinions, all of which have thousands of sea miles to back them, about what features are good or not.
There's more than one way to skin a cat, and my ideal cruising boat is vastly different than John Vigor's or Larry Pardey's or Steve Dashew's or the guy with Iolaire or Miles Smeeton anyone else who has published an opinion on it.

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by Benz

The problem with all those "Best Boat" checklists is that they reflect the opinion, often outdated, of the author. Their lists are things that worked for them, according to their particular prejudices and parameters. But if you take three or four of those and compare them, you'll find a huge disparity of opinions, all of which have thousands of sea miles to back them, about what features are good or not.
There's more than one way to skin a cat, and my ideal cruising boat is vastly different than John Vigor's or Larry Pardey's or Steve Dashew's or the guy with Iolaire or Miles Smeeton anyone else who has published an opinion on it.

The book nonetheless provide a comprehensive what to do and what to look out for list on refitting which I find very helpful and include a lot of information I never thought of before.

[dfelsent]

Very dangerous.

[TrentePieds]

Absolutely reprehensible conduct. Oh dear, oh dear! How irresponsible can parents be, eh ;-)?
TP

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

The book nonetheless provide a comprehensive what to do and what to look out for list on refitting which I find very helpful and include a lot of information I never thought of before.

Sure, they all do. Those things are not bad in themselves--just remember that there are plenty of experts out there who have many opposite opinions. After you've done this long enough, you'll be able to have a list of your own with a ton of stuff no one else thinks to mention.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

Aside from some retractable on modern race boats, bowspirit isn't popular on more modern boats aside from the benefit they offered in terms of larger sail area and pointability.
They are only seen on older full keel boats like all the Baba, Tayana 37, Hans Christian 33 and Westsail type.


I read that many lives were lost at sea on the bowspirit back in the age of sail, and it was even called a "widow-maker".
Are they really considered unsafe in a cruising situation?

They were originally designed to increase sail area on the older heavy boats. Today the serve the same purpose. The boat I’m most likely going to have refit will have a simple SS pole attached to the deck with a Harken Reflex Furler. When i want to change the sail (rarely) i will simply ease the pole back on to the boat, change the sail, and push the pole back out.

[merrydolphin]

Yes, it can be dangerous if you have to crawl out on it. But the biggest negatives with sprits is that you are getting nothing for something. You get the disadvantages of a longer boat, and don’t get the advantages of more space and a longer waterline. Another negative is that it causes a significantly increased pitch moment or hobby horsing. And it is significant. Thirdly, imagine the damage you can do with the entire mass of your boat point loading into a few square inches, as it plows into another vessel. Or sweeps through the marina. Zero gain and lots of significant negatives. It a boat needs a sprit to sail at all well it’s a make do at best that I would avoid. Safety at sea not so much the issue today. But I have lost count on how many times that I have had to fiddle with a furling gear issue while sailing. Imagine doing that on the end of a sprit (even it it has rails).
Although the failure of a sprit is infinitely more likely that just failure of a normal forstay. Many more components to go wrong. And I have seen many boats in the yard rebuilding their sprits, bobstays, dolphin strikers etc.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by merrydolphin

Yes, it can be dangerous if you have to crawl out on it. But the biggest negatives with sprits is that you are getting nothing for something. You get the disadvantages of a longer boat, and don’t get the advantages of more space and a longer waterline. Another negative is that it causes a significantly increased pitch moment or hobby horsing. And it is significant. Thirdly, imagine the damage you can do with the entire mass of your boat point loading into a few square inches, as it plows into another vessel. Or sweeps through the marina. Zero gain and lots of significant negatives. It a boat needs a sprit to sail at all well it’s a make do at best that I would avoid. Safety at sea not so much the issue today. But I have lost count on how many times that I have had to fiddle with a furling gear issue while sailing. Imagine doing that on the end of a sprit (even it it has rails).
Although the failure of a sprit is infinitely more likely that just failure of a normal forstay. Many more components to go wrong. And I have seen many boats in the yard rebuilding their sprits, bobstays, dolphin strikers etc.

Bowsprit plowing through a marina? Yep that 3’ bowsprit is a real hazard. We all know that the other 30’, 40’ or 50’ of boat won’t cause any damage. As to hobby horsing. Bowsprit are not used in a big sea. Or high winds. As to plowing into another boat (it worries me to think you even thought of that) what kind of damage do you think you will have without? Most likely your mast will come crashing down. Chainplate damage etc. Any ways it will be an insurance claim.. This sounds to me like you don’t really want to pay the less than $1,000 to put one on that will enable you to sail in lighter winds. There IS A REASON they are being designed into almost every new boat!

[merrydolphin]

Originally Posted by Happ

Bowsprit plowing through a marina? Yep that 3’ bowsprit is a real hazard. We all know that the other 30’, 40’ or 50’ of boat won’t cause any damage. As to hobby horsing. Bowsprit are not used in a big sea. Or high winds. As to plowing into another boat (it worries me to think you even thought of that) what kind of damage do you think you will have without? Most likely your mast will come crashing down. Chainplate damage etc. Any ways it will be an insurance claim.. This sounds to me like you don’t really want to pay the less than $1,000 to put one on that will enable you to sail in lighter winds. There IS A REASON they are being designed into almost every new boat!

The 3 to 5 feet of sprit sticking out while maneuvering in a marina is just that, sticking out, beyond the vessel. As a US Sailing instructor. I have trained hundreds of cruising sailors teaching for one of the largest and busiest schools in the country (USA). I have “seen it all”. Close quarter maneuvering is one of the most difficult and potentially costly facets of learning to sail/cruise.
And you can sit in an unsettled anchorage and watch the traditional sprinted boats like Hanse Christians, West Sails, Tayanas hobby horsing away with NO sail up. While the boats of similar size that have waterlines under the ends of the boat are relatively still. It’s simple physics. As to light air performance in modern cruisers, their sprits are either very short or are retractable and often made of carbon fiber. The sprit is not there because the boat CAN’T perform reasonably without one. It is there to enhance the very LIGHT AIR performance of a boat that already sails well without a sprit.