Bowspirit - potentially dangerous?

[Happ]

Originally Posted by merrydolphin

The 3 to 5 feet of sprit sticking out while maneuvering in a marina is just that, sticking out, beyond the vessel. As a US Sailing instructor. I have trained hundreds of cruising sailors teaching for one of the largest and busiest schools in the country (USA). I have “seen it all”. Close quarter maneuvering is one of the most difficult and potentially costly facets of learning to sail/cruise.
And you can sit in an unsettled anchorage and watch the traditional sprinted boats like Hanse Christians, West Sails, Tayanas hobby horsing away with NO sail up. While the boats of similar size that have waterlines under the ends of the boat are relatively still. It’s simple physics. As to light air performance in modern cruisers, their sprits are either very short or are retractable and often made of carbon fiber. The sprit is not there because the boat CAN’T perform reasonably without one. It is there to enhance the very LIGHT AIR performance of a boat that already sails well without a sprit.

I agree with much you have said but disagree on 2 things. First a sprit in close quarters is no different then having a bigger boat. Second the hobby horsing is in the hull design. The sprits don’t weigh enough to matter. As you pointed out most are short and often just light fiberglass or carbon fiber. I say this having lived aboard and sailed a Hans Christian. Real world experience.

[merrydolphin]

Originally Posted by Happ

I agree with much you have said but disagree on 2 things. First a sprit in close quarters is no different then having a bigger boat. Second the hobby horsing is in the hull design. The sprits don’t weigh enough to matter. As you pointed out most are short and often just light fiberglass or carbon fiber. I say this having lived aboard and sailed a Hans Christian. Real world experience.

On point one, you just made my point. Eg, I owned and cruised a K Peterson 44 for tens of thousands of miles. For a while we buddy boated with a HC 43, double ended with sprit, and boomkin. Yes, an absolutely beautiful vessel. she was nearly 53 long, LOA. We were nearly the same in LOD and displacement and close on sail area. But we were 9 feet shorter LOA and nearly 4 feet longer on waterline. That is nearly 17 FEET of boat hanging out over the waterline! Which would you rather be manuvering in a marina. A 44 footer or a 53 footer? When we were going into the seas, we would have to reef down so she could keep up, as the hobby horsing clearly slowed her some. We had to do this to some degree even off the wind as we had a good bit of waterline on her and a bit less wetted surface. I taught a number of classes offshore San Francisco on a Hanse Christian 38, One of the best tracking vessels that I have ever sailed. I Like them but again, I can’t control physics. 17 feet overhang!

Oh well we can agree to disagree. Happy sailing! Boat choice is always a very personal thing anyway. Someone else will tell me that I am silly for sailing a cruiser that their ULDB or multi-hull can sail rings around.

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by merrydolphin

The 3 to 5 feet of sprit sticking out while maneuvering in a marina is just that, sticking out, beyond the vessel. As a US Sailing instructor. I have trained hundreds of cruising sailors teaching for one of the largest and busiest schools in the country (USA). I have “seen it all”. Close quarter maneuvering is one of the most difficult and potentially costly facets of learning to sail/cruise.
And you can sit in an unsettled anchorage and watch the traditional sprinted boats like Hanse Christians, West Sails, Tayanas hobby horsing away with NO sail up. While the boats of similar size that have waterlines under the ends of the boat are relatively still. It’s simple physics. As to light air performance in modern cruisers, their sprits are either very short or are retractable and often made of carbon fiber. The sprit is not there because the boat CAN’T perform reasonably without one. It is there to enhance the very LIGHT AIR performance of a boat that already sails well without a sprit.

I don't know if bowspirit do increase hobbyhorsing, but one of the worst hobbyhorsing boat I've encountered is Amel Kirk which have no bowspirit:
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/kirk-36-amel
Westsail do hobbyhorse a lot too, but Hans Christian and Tayana to a lesser degree, so I suspect it is to a hull design that has everything in the middle but nothing on both ends, not just double ended designs.
Olle Enderlein double ended designs do not hobbyhorse even the smaller lighter ones, they are full keel and without bowspirit, but I suspect it was due to the hull design as was Perry/Paine's double ender.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by merrydolphin

On point one, you just made my point. Eg, I owned and cruised a K Peterson 44 for tens of thousands of miles. For a while we buddy boated with a HC 43, double ended with sprit, and boomkin. Yes, an absolutely beautiful vessel. she was nearly 53 long, LOA. We were nearly the same in LOD and displacement and close on sail area. But we were 9 feet shorter LOA and nearly 4 feet longer on waterline. That is nearly 17 FEET of boat hanging out over the waterline! Which would you rather be manuvering in a marina. A 44 footer or a 53 footer? When we were going into the seas, we would have to reef down so she could keep up, as the hobby horsing clearly slowed her some. We had to do this to some degree even off the wind as we had a good bit of waterline on her and a bit less wetted surface. I taught a number of classes offshore San Francisco on a Hanse Christian 38, One of the best tracking vessels that I have ever sailed. I Like them but again, I can’t control physics. 17 feet overhang!

Oh well we can agree to disagree. Happy sailing! Boat choice is always a very personal thing anyway. Someone else will tell me that I am silly for sailing a cruiser that their ULDB or multi-hull can sail rings around.

You aren’t talking about a Bow Sprit any longer. You are talking about LOD vs LWL. That’s a whole different story. I suggest you never sail one of the great older designs from the 60’s or 70’s like an Alberg 30. May of them sailed around the world! As to slowing down to reef I would expect you would. Not because of it’s waterline length (that does have some effect) but because it probably weighed 50% or more with a lot more wetted surface. I sailed on a boat 10 years ago that I guarantee you we would have had to take down a sail for a K Peterson to keep up. We were just over 13,000 vs 30,000 in KP 44 and the same length!

[merrydolphin]

Originally Posted by Happ

You aren’t talking about a Bow Sprit any longer. You are talking about LOD vs LWL. That’s a whole different story. I suggest you never sail one of the great older designs from the 60’s or 70’s like an Alberg 30. May of them sailed around the world! As to slowing down to reef I would expect you would. Not because of it’s waterline length (that does have some effect) but because it probably weighed 50% or more with a lot more wetted surface. I sailed on a boat 10 years ago that I guarantee you we would have had to take down a sail for a K Peterson to keep up. We were just over 13,000 vs 30,000 in KP 44 and the same length!

Yes, my friend. You are right on both all three points. One, yes, loa vs lwl is the real equation. However the quickest way to achieve a poor ratio here is overhangs from sprits and boomkins and extended decks over the stern. But true any poor ratio here is bad. And 2, oh yes. I am such a proponent on this ratio because……..I speak from experience. I owned, lived aboard and extensily cruised an Alberg 35. 35 on deck 24 lwl. 11 feet of overhang!! And of course, no sprit or boomkin. Wow, could that boat hoppyhorse. When the period was wrong it Would come to a near stop! Terrible. It’s biggest plus was that it indeed was well made and because of the narrow beam (barly over 9 ft) she was easily driven. In addition to the short waterline she had a cut away forefoot and steeply inwardly raked rudder. All exacerbating the pitch moment. And of course if boat properly designed and built with 1/3 of the displacement and same waterline length it will fly past the other. Of course in this case you are trading off a lot to get that speed. A friend converted a Santa Cruz 51 into a cruising boat. After crossing to the South Pacific he shortly sold it because with just he and his wife for crew they were tired of getting beat up in a “shell”. Fine when you are seriously ocean racing. Ps. If you look at most modern ocean cruising boats today you will see tons of waterline in almost all modern ocean cruisers. And indeed, they are much faster and if designed right, comfortable and seaworthy too.

[merrydolphin]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

I don't know if bowspirit do increase hobbyhorsing, but one of the worst hobbyhorsing boat I've encountered is Amel Kirk which have no bowspirit:
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/kirk-36-amel
Westsail do hobbyhorse a lot too, but Hans Christian and Tayana to a lesser degree, so I suspect it is to a hull design that has everything in the middle but nothing on both ends, not just double ended designs.
Olle Enderlein double ended designs do not hobbyhorse even the smaller lighter ones, they are full keel and without bowspirit, but I suspect it was due to the hull design as was Perry/Paine's double ender.

Yes, true. See my last comment below to HAPP

[R Hutcheson]

Not particularly, especially if it’s equipped with a well maintained roller furler. Obviously, falling overboard is never good and you should strive to avoid it. Most boats are designed around the interior which sells boats at the dock, and the racing rules in effect at the time. With consideration not for making the boat fast(excepting those expected to compete in a fleet of like boats) but to appear “slow on paper” giving an advantage based on the rating system in effect at the time vs. other boats. Also, marinas charge based on LOA, so having a sprit which is 15% of your length or better isn’t particularly economical.