ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by Polux

11 hours after and at short distance the Lagoon 620 (12)

If the Lagoon 62 reported 12 engine hours, I think Outremer was correct to call them out. This is not believable.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Polux

Passage times and number of engine hours. At black, no engine hours (meaning the boat was racing), at Green from more than 0 to 10, at Blue, 10 to 20, at Brown from 20 to 30, at Violet from 30 to 40, at Dark red from 40 to 60, at Red, more than 60.

7th Group
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2273986

This group is constituted by boats with a length till 50ft. Let's remember that several boats with less size had arrived on the groups that arrived first, starting by the first group, but they are more numerous on this group, that even so had arrived in the middle of bigger boats.

The first of this group to arrive was a small Pronavia 42, a performance cruiser built in very small numbers. It arrived 3 hours and the half after the last of the last group, a Jeanneau 49DS. He made the passage in about 18 days and 19 hours after 5 hours arrived a Baltic 50, then 2 hours later the older Swan 46, about 4 hours later a Elan 434 (16 engine hours) and a First 40.

Next, several hours later arrived a boat that was not among these but that have recovered a lot of time, deserving his place on this group, a new Garcia SC48 (17).


6 hours after, a First 40.7, one hour after, a Lagoon 42 (85), 5 hours after, a Lagoon 450 (80). With more 6 hours followed the first boat of the next group, that arrived with the group ahead, a Dufour 44p (18), at 1 hour and almost together, 4 boats, other Elan 434 (39), a X43 (42) from the next group, the last of this group, a Jeanneau 50 DS (84) and a boat that at the time was being slower but, recovering a lot, deserves to be on this group since it finished among them, an almost new Grand Soleil 47 (5). These last boats made the passage in about 20 days 0 hour.

From this group 2 out of 3 cats motored for more than 3 days while regarding monohulls out of 10 only one motored more than 3 days. All the others motored less than 2 days, with 6 motoring less than a day.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

If the Lagoon 62 reported 12 engine hours, I think Outremer was correct to call them out. This is not believable.

I agree.
The funniest thing is that there were two other Lagoon 62 which came couple days later than this one and using 100-120 hours of engines..
Obviously we shouldn't blame anybody without any eveidence on hand, but to say to least , it's doubtful..

Below is the statement of Outremer from their facebook page next to the results published by ARC. There isn't any reference to any specific boat
but the message is clear..

Outremer Yachting






Quelques concurrents semblent avoir "oublié" des journées entières passées au moteur...

My translation: some competitors seem "to have forgotten" entires days that they spent under engine.

Cheers

Yeloya

NB: Outremer has also announced that they came to an agreement with ARC to organise a racing division for multis starting from 2017.

[SV DestinyAscen]

Outremer was watching the rally the entire time as if it were a race, making notes about other cats doing 6 knots in 5 knots of wind.

It's silly all around - no one buys a condo boat based on its performance in the ARC. Small builders like Azuree have used the ARC to promote how well their new boats perform, but they don't use it to compare with others.

Outremer should maybe focus on selling boats and modeling Australians with young bodies.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Looking at the two tailenders, Hot Stuff and Xarradola, who are level pegging at the moment.... makes me think performance has as much to do with crew as design...

Now that they arrived we can answer that, I mean the time both boats took for doing the passage, on both a slow one. The Xarrandola, a Colvic 37 took about 26 days 21 hours, the First 40,7 Hot Stuff 22 days 11 yours.

About a 4 days and a half difference. The boats were only tailenders because they sailed out at different time, but both, days later than the others.

But off course the crew, as much as the boat counts and that is why I have considered only the boats that made a faster passage, considering boat length. None of these two boats would have a place on the selected boats, even if they, in what regards length, are in different groups. And on this case, having them sailed out at a different time, the wind conditions could have not been similar.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by yeloya

I agree.
The funniest thing is that there were two other Lagoon 62 which came couple days later than this one and using 100-120 hours of engines..
Obviously we shouldn't blame anybody without any eveidence on hand, but to say to least , it's doubtful..

Below is the statement of Outremer from their facebook page next to the results published by ARC. There isn't any reference to any specific boat
but the message is clear..

Outremer Yachting

"Quelques concurrents semblent avoir "oublié" des journées entières passées au moteur..."

My translation: some competitors seem "to have forgotten" entires days that they spent under engine.

Cheers

Yeloya

NB: Outremer has also announced that they came to an agreement with ARC to organise a racing division for multis starting from 2017.

Cheers to the racing division Multihull division. I believe that it did not exist simply because there were few interested and not enough to make a division. Maybe we will see some cats racing and maybe the ones that do the ARC+ (some sail fast) will come here. I look forward to that.

I have looked carefully to the speeds done by the Outremer 5x during the passage. I made a post about that and said: "if you go to the tracker and look at the instantaneous speeds, you will never find a speed over 12.5k, even with 23k winds and I was only able to find it once (you can go back with the tracker and see the speeds), a couple of times slightly over 11k, several times a bit 10k but most of the time between 8 and 10K (with a decent wind)."

You can check that yourself, maybe you can find a slightly bigger speed but most of the time were relatively small speeds for a 62ft cat, I mean between 8 and 10k.

Anyway 12 hours running the engine in very light winds represent a huge amount of miles. If we consider a diference of speed between sailing with almost no wind or go full blast with the engine on a boat this size it should represent at least a 8k difference in speed. If we consider 8K we would be talking about 96nm that should be translated in about a 14 hour diference that joined to the time the Outremer won to the first Lagoon 62, it will give a diference in time of about 14 hours.

We have to join this 14 hours to the 38 hours that separated the Outremer 5x from the first Lagoon 62. That will gave a diference of 2 days and 4 hours.

The good performance of condo cats on the ARC has been a confirmed reality and I don't see what is wrong or odd regarding a well sailed Lagoon 62 to take more 2 days and 4 hours than a slightly smaller Outremet 5x. If we were talking about upwind sailing the diference would certainly be more, but that is not the case here.

Before insulting others and call then cheaters I believe that they should look better at the numbers and compared performances between performance cats and condo cats on the ARC.

[yeloya]

I don't think that for Outremer using ARC as an advertising platform is a good idea, particularly within the given format of ARC. In their statement they say that they are proud to finish the ARC first and without using the engine at all. To me, being faster than Lagoon, FP kind of boats doesn't add any value to this brand. Everyone knows that Outremer's are fast boats. They don't have to prove themselves with this kind of rallies with vague regulations.
Outremer will most likely be the winner of next year multis race as they acquired Gunboat as well..
Rapier 550, Swisscat 55 kind of boats can challenge Outremer but Gunboat is another class.

Cheers

Yeloya

[Polux]

Originally Posted by yeloya

I don't think that for Outremer using ARC as an advertising platform is a good idea, particularly within the given format of ARC. In their statement they say that they are proud to finish the ARC first and without using the engine at all. To me, being faster than Lagoon, FP kind of boats doesn't add any value to this brand. Everyone knows that Outremer's are fast boats. They don't have to prove themselves with this kind of rallies with vague regulations.
Outremer will most likely be the winner of next year multis race as they acquired Gunboat as well..
Rapier 550, Swisscat 55 kind of boats can challenge Outremer but Gunboat is another class.

Cheers

Yeloya

Yes, I would like to see the Gunboat 68 doing the ARC on the racing division but I do agree with you that Outremer will have no interest in doing a race with a big exposure for promoting the brand.

The Outremer reputation is made as a fast boat and in my opinion, as generally the one of performance cats, is overrated in what regards cruising or even racing potential. That can even have prejudicial effects in what regards the reputation.

Sure they are faster than the typical monohull but they are not the typical cat too. Put them against performance monohulls of similar size and price and you will see that the performance is not very different. That is what past ARC had showed regarding namely two Gunboats that were raced, also without using the engine and fast performance cruisers of about the same size.

Last year you had two brand new Outremer 51, one much better sailed than the other, not having a significant difference in performance regarding a Pogo 50, I mean, the faster one. Many other examples on past ARC.

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen

Outremer should maybe focus on selling boats and modeling Australians with young bodies.

They are already doing a pretty good job of that.

[Bleemus]

Are there any statistics on who had the most fun? I have raced across the Atlantic and cruised across both Atlantic and Pacific. While racing was challenging I much prefer the latter.

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by Polux

Cheers to the racing division Multihull division. I believe that it did not exist simply because there were few interested and not enough to make a division. Maybe we will see some cats racing and maybe the ones that do the ARC+ (some sail fast) will come here. I look forward to that.

I have looked carefully to the speeds done by the Outremer 5x during the passage. I made a post about that and said: "if you go to the tracker and look at the instantaneous speeds, you will never find a speed over 12.5k, even with 23k winds and I was only able to find it once (you can go back with the tracker and see the speeds), a couple of times slightly over 11k, several times a bit 10k but most of the time between 8 and 10K (with a decent wind)."

You can check that yourself, maybe you can find a slightly bigger speed but most of the time were relatively small speeds for a 62ft cat, I mean between 8 and 10k.

Anyway 12 hours running the engine in very light winds represent a huge amount of miles. If we consider a diference of speed between sailing with almost no wind or go full blast with the engine on a boat this size it should represent at least a 8k difference in speed. If we consider 8K we would be talking about 96nm that should be translated in about a 14 hour diference that joined to the time the Outremer won to the first Lagoon 62, it will give a diference in time of about 14 hours.

We have to join this 14 hours to the 38 hours that separated the Outremer 5x from the first Lagoon 62. That will gave a diference of 2 days and 4 hours.

The good performance of condo cats on the ARC has been a confirmed reality and I don't see what is wrong or odd regarding a well sailed Lagoon 62 to take more 2 days and 4 hours than a slightly smaller Outremet 5x. If we were talking about upwind sailing the diference would certainly be more, but that is not the case here.

Before insulting others and call then cheaters I believe that they should look better at the numbers and compared performances between performance cats and condo cats on the ARC.

Sorry, but there is too much of your personal opinion in here. I doubt you have sailed on a cat as heavy and undercanvassed as a Lagoon 62 in light airs. It will be a lot slower than you are crediting it with.

[Bleemus]

http://www.yachtingworld.com/news/co...heating-101525

[Palarran]

I spent quite a bit of time just now looking at the Lagoon 62's progress and the associated wind at that time. I have to say, it appears to be believable to me. I'm pretty sure Palarran could do those speeds under sail with a crew who could fly the spinnaker all night. Add to that a Code 0 that maybe the other 62's might not have. IMO though, as hard as it it for me to agree with Polux, the Outremer doesn't seem to have hit the speeds I would have guessed. Yeloya, in that video you posted, you new Catana was hauling ass. I don't see that same speed with 20 knot winds on Nemo. Same for Allegra. Both these boats hunted way north for the wind while Ludanka ran the rhum line. Ludanka sailed 2723nm compared to Nemo at 2927nm.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Bleemus

Controversy at ARC rally over cruising yachts’ engine hours and cheating

That's interesting.
To each their own but this does make me laugh quote: "Speaking for myself, I’m always amazed how many people plan, dream and prepare for this for years and then do all they can do bring it to the hastiest possible conclusion. They often spend so much on diesel that it would be cheaper to fly everyone to Saint Lucia business class – which would be a whole lot quicker. It seems crazy to me"

Obviously he has either never bought 200 gallons of diesel or a business class ticket. Diesel is ALWAYS the least expensive item we spend money on every year. A lot of people still work and taking 20 to 30 days off isn't something to take lightly. It's very difficult when your trying to organize with family and friends.

Also, as the article reports, a catamaran "Spirit" originally had 5 motoring hours recorded on the ARC+ and it has now been changed to 150 hours. Is it possible that they reported 150 hours and someone accidently recorded it as 5? Highly unlikely that they would not have known someone would notice this.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Bleemus

Controversy at ARC rally over cruising yachts’ engine hours and cheating

I really don't understand what she is talking about:

"Suspicions abound throughout the fleet. In the ARC+ rally a minor storm erupted over a crew who bagged line honours and a class win after declaring five engine hours. They were rumoured to have motored for 11 days – ie, all the way from the Cape Verdes."
Read more at Controversy at ARC rally over cruising yachts’ engine hours and cheating

On the ARC+ there are not a single boat that have declared 5 hours from Cabo Verde to St Lucia. All have declared much more.
https://www.worldcruising.com/arc/ar...spx?eventid=65

and the below statements can only be regarded as snobbish or from someone that don't know what cruising is all about and that seems rather strange coming from someone that writes and works for a magazine for many years.

It seems that she has not discovered that sailing is not an end itself for many cruisers, I would say most, and that is just a mean for cruising and nobody is cruising on the middle of the Atlantic, but doing a passage to other cruising grounds that, on this case are the Caribbean.

"But many crews motor quite legitimately for days to keep up a minimum speed and a few skippers have arrived in Saint Lucia this week declaring between 100 and 200 hours. For them, presumably, the ARC was part sailing, part delivery trip.

It raises some interesting questions about attitudes and approaches to lengthy ocean passages. Do people not have the patience for them any more? Does life feel too fast to slow down? Is downtime dead time?

Speaking for myself, I’m always amazed how many people plan, dream and prepare for this for years and then do all they can do bring it to the hastiest possible conclusion. They often spend so much on diesel that it would be cheaper to fly everyone to Saint Lucia business class – which would be a whole lot quicker. It seems crazy to me.
....
“This is the way sailing has gone. People are now more interested in getting to the destination than enjoying the journey. It’s the same with the World ARC. We make a rendezvous and boats arrive days early and then complain they haven’t had enough time at the previous place."
Read more at Controversy at ARC rally over cruising yachts’ engine hours and cheating

Even for the ones that like sailing, if the speed goes below 3 or 4k, depending on the cruiser, the normal attitude is to turn the engine on, if one has the diesel for motoring.

Regarding the price of diesel she may not know that some cross the Atlantic for cruising on the med or on the Caribbean on motorboats and that the price of the diesel is just a small part of the cost of owning and maintaining a big Yacht.

If someone wants not only to make a passage but sail all the time than the right place to do it is at the racing division and I don't understand how she cannot see that the huge majority are not interested in doing that. They are cruisers, not racers, most of them.

Saying all this I would say that on the racing division the engine hours should be controlled not only by a declaration but also by a verification and that on the cruising division handicap racing or any other form of organized racing does not make sense. On sail races one does not use the engine.

They should just publish the times and the engine hours (declared) as information that can be of interest. Anyway one would have always fun trying to sail better and faster than the next boat or than bigger boats but that should be all. No handicap racing or any other form of classification, except the fact that ones arrive first than others, even if it is not a sail race.

That would probably increase the number of boats on the racing division and that should be a good thing since it would be a meaningful race and a bigger one, provided that an adequate control was made on engine hours.