ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

[Polux]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Polux,

I strongly suggest that you do more sailing than internet search.

I've raced on Archambaud 40 R for couple of years, carbon mast/boom, state of art technological sails and with a professional team. As Arsen was suggesting, I have never seen speeds even close to the ones you are referring to.
Pls also remember that most of the polar graphs are computer generated and 99% of them are bull s..t..

You can find whatever proof you like on the internet, but the reality on the sea. If you want to learn about boats, go sailing and tell us about yr own experience, not from the data you collect on the net..

Cheers

Yeloya

You mean with an Archambault 40R you did never sailed close to 5K with 4 k winds? Well, you need to change that crew because I can do it on my boat alone and the A40 is not a slower boat.

Now please, can we remain on topic? If you want to discuss that do it in another place.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by yeloya

..
Regarding the motoring hours, I have just checked the multi's; I cannot believe that L 450 (classified 1st) has arrived 4 days earlier than L570 (one of the fastest Lagoon ever made) and motoring only 5 hours vs. 37 hours of motoring for L 570. This is ridiculous...
There might be people believeing in that but not me..

Cheers

Yeloya

Again, this is about the ARC+, has nothing to do with this thread and the transat has not been followed here. However regarding comparative results and times of passage and use of engine you should check last year ARC+ where a similar thing happened with a Lagoon 38 being much faster than other theoretically much faster cats that logged a lot of hours while that smaller Lagoon practically did not use the engine.

Your reasons for not believing on that diference are similar, however the sailor of that Lagoon 38 is a member of this forum. Maybe you can ask him if he faked his engine hours? I don't believe it was the case.

The small number of boats doing that rally does not allow for significant statistical results.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

your boat is better in light winds. Also, where you sail not much confused seas, i guess. I have noticed around sydney, that sleek looking monos on average motor as much as I do. Sail dumping because of roll on open ocean affects all, one needs most times 7 or so kn of wind to go 4-5 kn.

As I said I am only considering flat or practically flat water that is what you get if light winds are established for a given number of hours.

You have to remember that a boat sailing at 65º of the true wind, doing 5K with 4k winds is really being sailed with an almost 8k wind (7.6K).

Meaning that the boat is almost duplicating the apparent wind regarding the true wind.

That is very enjoyable sailing and a difficult one. I remember having test sailed the Salona 38, with the boat was new, with two other sailors, one that raced and a lady cruiser with limited sail experience. The wind has almost non existent, just a very light irregular thermal breeze that went from almost nothing to 2k, maybe just a bit little more from time to time. It was funny because every time me or the other guy picked the wheel the boat was doing over 2k. Every time the lady picked the wheel the boat stopped and she was complaining that when she picked the wheel the wind disappeared.

Of course the wind was the same but on those conditions if you don't sail the boat very carefully, making wind speed, the boat stops. It happens the same if the sea is not flat. Not possible to make wind.

[Polux]

And finally, a post on topic

The passage time of the smaller boats the ones with 37ft of less. As in other groups, several of this size group had already arrived but most, really small boats have arrived on this group, just few hours ago.

10th Group
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2277019

The first to arrive from this group was the Halberg Rassy 372, that took more 6 hours and a half that the last of the previous group, a Lagoon 38. It made the passage in about 22 days and 7 hours. Next, at 9 hours, arrived the Elan 37 with an all female crew, then, at 10 hours the first 32ft boat, a Najad 320, then at 6 hours a Comfortina 32 followed by another Comfortina 32, at 18 hours. This one took 23 days and 23 hours to make the crossing.

And that is all in what regards passage times. 24 boats will arrive after the Comfortina 32, some few sailed later others have stopped at Cabo Verde for refueling, some were just slower, including much bigger boats.

Next we will see, regarding all these named boats, that made a relatively fast passage time, what was the engine hours of each.

The important, regarding cruising, is the passage time, but the engine hour time can provide significant information regarding how each type of boat was fast: Big or heavy boats can carry a lot of fuel but light one can't, so it will be interesting to have a look at the different options one has regarding a fast cruising boat on the trade winds: Better sailing boat, smaller diesel tankage or heavier boat, lesser sail ability and bigger tankage.

[Polux]

I was really intrigued with that big Ticari yacht that was really, really slow, so slow that ir will be the last to enter and did not even stop in Cabo verde.

It is explained why it is slow, it is a kind of Goleta, the type we see sailing (well, more motoring) on the Eastern Med doing charter. This one is a schooner:

[Polux]

Passage times and number of engine hours. At black, no engine hours (meaning the boat was racing), at Green from more than 0 to 10, at Blue, 10 to 20, at Brown from 20 to 30, at Violet from 30 to 40, at Dark red from 40 to 60, at Red, more than 60.

1st group - post 112
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2270419

The two first to arrive, very close were the Wally 60 and the Southern wind 82, doing the passage 12 days and about 13 hours.

About 13 hours later arrived the 60ft Outremer 5x and the Pogo 40s2. The Akilaria 40 come some hours away.

Next, at about 26 hours from the Outremer 5x arrived the Catana 53 (55 engine hours), the Aluminium Mobile 53 and the Oyster 655 (60), all at short distance. This group made the passage in about 14 days and 14 hours.

A distance of about 2 days between the first and the last on this group.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Polux

Passage times and number of engine hours. At black, no engine hours (meaning the boat was racing), at Green from more than 0 to 10, at Blue, 10 to 20, at Brown from 20 to 30, at Violet from 30 to 40, at Dark red from 40 to 60, at Red, more than 60.

2nd group
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2270692

the 2th group had only 3 boats and the first to arrive was a More 55 (40 engine hours) that closed on the group ahead, at just 20 hours from the last, making the passage in 15 days 10 yours.

11 hours after and at short distance the Lagoon 620 (12) and the Dufour 525GL, (12)making the passage in about 15 days 20 hours.

The ones from the 4th group that arrived ahead of all the ones from the 3th group were a X 562 (83) and a X 41. Both arrived very close, doing about more 13 hours than the Lagoon 62 and making the passage in 16 days 9 hours.

3rd group
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2270913

The first boat of this group to arrive was the Beneteau 50 (12), coming about 4 hours after the X 41 doing the passage in 16 days 13 hours.

Next, 6 hours later and very close arrived a Lagoon 52 2 (52), a Oyster 575 (36) and two other boats from the 4th group, a Hylas 54 (174!!!!) and a Jeanneau SO 54DS (40). They made the passage in about 16 days and 19 hours.

4th group
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2271576

After the boats already mentioned that arrived before and with the 3th group, the first of the remaining boats was a Catana 47 (30), another Oyster 575 (59), a Grand Soleil 50 (12) and a Discovery 55 (92) that was previously on the group ahead. They all arrived at short distance and at about 4 hours from the previous group of yachts. They made the passage in about 16 days 23 hours.

[yeloya]

I've just checked the multis and according to my rough calculations Catana 521 should be 12-13 hours ahead of X 5 in corrected time although X 5 was announced the winner.
What am I missing ??


Cheers


Yeloya

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Polux

Passage times and number of engine hours. At black, no engine hours (meaning the boat was racing), at Green from more than 0 to 10, at Blue, 10 to 20, at Brown from 20 to 30, at Violet from 30 to 40, at Dark red from 40 to 60, at Red, more than 60.

5th Group
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2271604
6th Group
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2273138

These two also become mixed so I will post the arrival time of the boats independently of belonging to one ore another.

After the Discovery 55 from the last group the first from these groups to arrive was a Oyster 625 (118 engine hours)!!!! at only 3 hour from the Discovery 55 of the previous group, making the passage in 17 days 2 hour then a Bavaria 50 (58) (North route) and a Oyster 48 light wave (South route) that entered at almost the same time with more 2 hours than the Oyster.

Next to Arrive was the Gieffe 51 then with more 7 hours come one of the big surprises of this ARC, a little Dufour 385 (39), that entered with a Beneteau Oceanis 60 (40) and a Hanse 575 (32).

After the Dufour 385 and at about 3 hours and a half from it come, close, a Leopard 48 (30), a Moddy 54 (33) and a Lagoon 620 (106)!!!!, followed 6 hour later by another Lagoon 620 (120)!!!!. 3 hours after the Lagoon entered a Discovery 55 (124)!!!! and a Grand Soleil 43.

8 hours after the GS43 entered a Bowman 57 (118)!!!! and a second Hanse 575 (92).

8 hours after the Hanse 575 entered a Fountain Pajot Lavezzy 40 (75), followed 2 hours later by a Catana 42 (28). 2 hours later entered a Lagoon 450 (193)!!!! and a Jeanneau 49DS (26).

The two last ones of these two groups made the passage in about 18days 15hours.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by yeloya

I've just checked the multis and according to my rough calculations Catana 521 should be 12-13 hours ahead of X 5 in corrected time although X 5 was announced the winner.
What am I missing ??
Cheers
Yeloya

I am not interested in compensated times neither regarding monohulls neither multihulls but the Outremer 5x was racing and had done 0 engine hours while the Catana was cruising and had motoring 55 hours and they compensated for that too.

As I said previously a boat using the engine from propulsion should not be considered in any sail race. And as I also said before, if the guys of the Outremer 5X wanted to race, as it was clear from their statements on video, they should have made the ARC on the racing division.

Don't understand why there is never any multihull doing it on the racing division, even if they can do it.

Cheers

[Polux]

Having a look at the boats that motored more than 2 days and a half we can see that among them there is no light modern mass market production boats with the exception of a Hanse 575 with 92 engine hours.The only other exception regarding light monohulls, in the case an older performance cruiser, was a X 562, that motored 83 hours.

There are not performance cats among those boats.

The boats that had motored more than 60 hours among these boats are mostly medium weight production monohulls or condo cats:

Discovery 55 - 92 hours
Discovery 55 - 124 hours
Bowman 57 - 118 hours
Oyster 625 -118 hours
Hylas 54 - 174 hours
Lagoon 620 - 120 hours
Lagoon 620 - 106 hours
FP Lavezzi 40 - 75 hours
Lagoon 450 -193 hours

The record belongs to the Lagoon 450 that motored 7 days and 9 hours on a 18 days and 15 hours passage. I did not know that a Lagoon 450 had the engine autonomy for that. Great tankage!!!

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by Polux

Don't understand why there is never any multihull doing it on the racing division, even if they can do it.

Cheers

Once again this not true Polux, you are not doing yr homework properly..
Multis are not allowed in racing division.. (see below)
Anyway, I hope this thread came to end until next year..

Cheers

Yeloya

ELIGIBILITY AND ENTRY

3.1 The ARC Racing Division is open to monohull yachts between 8.23m and 30.50m (27’‐100’).

[Polux]

Yes, you are right about that and now I understand why boats like the Gunboat 66 and the Outremer 5x are racing, doing 0 engine hours, with racing crews on the cruising division.

That is rather stupid and probably a left over of the bias international racing community had regarding multihull racing. That has pretty much finished in Europe with all the major races allowing and giving incentive to multihull participation. No idea that on the ARC they were as backward at that as the Australians. I hope that will end soon.

Regarding the thread, if you don't like it why do you keep looking at it?

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Polux

As I said I am only considering flat or practically flat water that is what you get if light winds are established for a given number of hours.

You have to remember that a boat sailing at 65º of the true wind, doing 5K with 4k winds is really being sailed with an almost 8k wind (7.6K).

Meaning that the boat is almost duplicating the apparent wind regarding the true wind.

That is very enjoyable sailing and a difficult one. I remember having test sailed the Salona 38, with the boat was new, with two other sailors, one that raced and a lady cruiser with limited sail experience. The wind has almost non existent, just a very light irregular thermal breeze that went from almost nothing to 2k, maybe just a bit little more from time to time. It was funny because every time me or the other guy picked the wheel the boat was doing over 2k. Every time the lady picked the wheel the boat stopped and she was complaining that when she picked the wheel the wind disappeared.

Of course the wind was the same but on those conditions if you don't sail the boat very carefully, making wind speed, the boat stops. It happens the same if the sea is not flat. Not possible to make wind.

you probably wont believe but I have done 4 kn in 4 kn of wind in flat seas and white sails. There is couple tricks to get there though, and engine ON is not essential . L 400 polar say I can only do 1.5 k.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

you probably wont believe but I have done 4 kn in 4 kn of wind in flat seas and white sails. There is couple tricks to get there though, and engine ON is not essential . L 400 polar say I can only do 1.5 k.

Do you used a code 0? For doing that you need to make wind and boats with good upwind potential are normally better at that. Here you have a Polar from a Lagoon 380:

But I do find hard to believe that the boat needs 8k wind to make a bit less than 4k, upwind.
Typically a relatively fast monohull like a Elan 400 with 6K makes a bit over 6K and with 4k would make even more over 4k.

Who made those Lagoon polar curves that I see on the net, like the one above? I doubt they are from the NA, VPLP.