eBay sale went south

[Luwiluwi]

There’s always the third possibility, that the “buyer” took it, realized the vulnerability, and claimed it was not there when he showed up.

[jb2c]

I'm mostly with the seller on this one. I didn't, however, read this entire thread. Did the buyer respond to seller's email in the affirmative? And did the buyer sign and return the BOS to the seller? If so, then it seems clear that both parties agreed to how the dinghy was to be delivered. In my mind, that means the FOB point was agreed to. The FOB point was 18550 San Carlos blvd, Fort Myers Beach. The dinghy was, according to seller, left there. Which can be verified by the local friend, if the police do investigate this. So at the point it was at that location, it belonged to the buyer.

But I understand that Ebay and PayPal terms are contracts. So then the question becomes "Does a bill of sale (if signed by both parties) after a purchase on Ebay override Ebay terms?".

PayPal can remove the money from an account. But the contract for the sale was with Ebay. So any legal action would be based on the Ebay contract (although if I were the judge, I would be influenced by the later BOS, if it was agreed to by both parties), not what PayPal has to say about it.

It would be interesting to know if the buyer listed the dinghy as his when he filed the police report. That would indicate his state of mind on the subject. But would not, of course, change the contract (but would again influence my decision were I the judge on the case).

You'd think with as many online transactions as occur these days, the courts would have made this sort of thing crystal clear.

[slide]

Originally Posted by Luwiluwi

There’s always the third possibility, that the “buyer” took it, realized the vulnerability, and claimed it was not there when he showed up.

When reading the OP, this popped into my mind as well. However, it makes no difference since the OP didn't deliver the boat to the buyer. He used a drop which is fine until it fails to work as it did here.

It's a matter of negligence. Assuming the boat was stolen, it may have been stolen on day 1 so the argument that the buyer is negligent goes right out the porthole. Meanwhile, the seller was negligent in not delivering the boat to the buyer as he was contracted to do.

[stargate]

I bought a dingy and motor on eBay. It was in another city and I made arrangements with the owner to pick it up from his boat, he left it in the cockpit. It was there when I arrived, on the date I said I would be there, he could not be there. I was in phone contact with him and acknowledged that I was picking it up. The deal went well.
Unfortunately for this seller, it sounds like he did not have the same communication or understanding, and the dingy was left in a public place. Unless this is all agreed in writing in eBay communication , the seller is on the hook, as with eBay policy the buyer never received his goods, unfortunately cut and dried with eBay. A very unfortunate situation, but ebay does support their buyers! I agree that 2 weeks is beyond a reasonable time to pick up your purchase, but the seller should still have had it in his possession regardless. You can not abandon it, unless you have an agreement in writing that the buyer has accepted possession or you have physically handed it to them. Unfortunate

[john61ct]

Yes, the technical legality is IRL irrelevant.

eBay, PayPal, CC policy rules, seller is SOL

[SaltyMetals]

Originally Posted by stargate

I bought a dingy and motor on eBay. It was in another city and I made arrangements with the owner to pick it up from his boat, he left it in the cockpit. It was there when I arrived, on the date I said I would be there, he could not be there. I was in phone contact with him and acknowledged that I was picking it up. The deal went well.
Unfortunately for this seller, it sounds like he did not have the same communication or understanding, and the dingy was left in a public place. Unless this is all agreed in writing in eBay communication , the seller is on the hook, as with eBay policy the buyer never received his goods, unfortunately cut and dried with eBay. A very unfortunate situation, but ebay does support their buyers! I agree that 2 weeks is beyond a reasonable time to pick up your purchase, but the seller should still have had it in his possession regardless. You can not abandon it, unless you have an agreement in writing that the buyer has accepted possession or you have physically handed it to them. Unfortunate

I do not know the local US applicable law but have done an enormous number of international transactions in many countries. These are normally governed by what is known as INCOTERMS 2000. In the case of this transaction the point of delivery that was agreed was FCA (not FOB). The seller completed the delivery to the agreed point of delivery, BOS had been established (presumably copied to buyer by email), and payment made in recognition of the transfer of title at that time. Hence "delivery" was completed. IMHO it is the buyer's problem. Since title was transferred the seller would find it difficult if not impossible, to claim on insurance since you cannot make a claim for goods for which you do not hold title.

No value has been mentioned but i am surprised it was not locked up. Must hv been on the hard if he had pulled the drain plug. Could have been padlocked w heavy chain to a sturdy fence or concrete block but that is hindsight.

It is unfortunate but legally i think seller is correct. It is the buyer's prblm.
Andrew

[slide]

Originally Posted by SaltyMetals

I do not know the local US applicable law but have done an enormous number of international transactions in many countries. These are normally governed by what is known as INCOTERMS 2000. In the case of this transaction the point of delivery that was agreed was FCA (not FOB). The seller completed the delivery to the agreed point of delivery, BOS had been established (presumably copied to buyer by email), and payment made in recognition of the transfer of title at that time. Hence "delivery" was completed. IMHO it is the buyer's problem. Since title was transferred the seller would find it difficult if not impossible, to claim on insurance since you cannot make a claim for goods for which you do not hold title.

No value has been mentioned but i am surprised it was not locked up. Must hv been on the hard if he had pulled the drain plug. Could have been padlocked w heavy chain to a sturdy fence or concrete block but that is hindsight.

It is unfortunate but legally i think seller is correct. It is the buyer's prblm.
Andrew

No. The buyer has no reason to believe the seller delivered the item as promised. IF the seller had created a bailment, this could have been addressed but he just dropped or didn't drop, the boat off.

[stargate]

We are all making assumptions as to the communication between buyer and seller. We don't have all the facts. My previous comment is based on ebay policy when there is no other "written agreements" in eBay communications or emails. If there is, it changes everything, as you suggest. Like I said , unfortunate to have to deal with this kind of thing.

[rlevin73]

If you buy a dish washer and pay for it but it gets stolen and not delivered don’t you think you have a right to get your money back?

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by rlevin73

If you buy a dish washer and pay for it but it gets stolen and not delivered don’t you think you have a right to get your money back?

Actually in that example you would. As it was not delivered and therefore the sale has not been completed, but typically the seller would have recourse to go after the delivery agent (that's what the insurance on shipping is for!)

[johnserr]

Would you mind saying how much money it was ? Felony theft ? Misdemeanor? On your Federal taxes you can write it off as theft on long form. ( I have but I don't know if is still on the forms)
IRS info on losses. https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc515

[SaltyMetals]

What matters is the agreed point of delivery. In the case of a new dishwasher to be delivered to a house it could still be the buyers problem if the delivery terms were CIP. This is a bit like a CIF sale for a sea shipment but CIP refers to a land delivery. Effectively title has been transferred to the buyer at the point of despatch/shipment but the costs of carriage are covered by the seller to destination. In the case of the OP the agreed delivery point was in the Ft Meyers boat yard so the seller completed delivery according to the contract.
Andrew.

[johnserr]

Link to irs about losses. https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc515

[john61ct]

Only in theory "under the law".

The reality is, seller has no effective recourse once the middlemen rule in favour of the buyer.

Which happens thousands of times per day, seller gets scammed, nothing they can do about it.

Not economically worth pursuing the matter when the amount is so small.

If you aren't a high volume professional seller that can just factor it into your pricing model, then sell for pickup only buyer pays cash.

Or use Craig's List only.

[johnserr]

To write it off on your taxes go to IRS and look for Theft losses .