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thruska · 16-07-2018, 10:24

We dont know the buyer circumstaces or excuses or reasons for not promptly fetching the goods he officially bought. I sold a boat n trailer on ebay and care was taken on both sides to insure a seamless transaction . Pics and instructions and requirements and waivers. Not my first rodeo. Like selling a used car privately; no warranty expressed or implied, no guarantee, as is whee is, no refunds , no returns, give me the money , show me your i.d. , sign here you get what you pay for, no you cant leave it here, unless you pay lot rent..
Only had one guy come back without the vehicle to get money back. I asked this guy several times are you sure you want this ? Couole days later buyers remorse. I said i already bought groceries with the money ,read your bill of sale that you signed.
I believe esales you must check every dot n tittle twice with no stone unturned.
In a jury trial I'd side with the seller. Buyer pick up your purchase on a timely manner and we wouldn't be discussing this !

Phil A · 16-07-2018, 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by S/V_Surya

Here is an interesting dilemma. I recently sold my dinghy on eBay. due to other commitments I had to leave town shortly after the sale. I sent the buyer a notarized bill of sale and location of the dinghy for pickup. the dinghy was at a small private Marina in Fort Myers. The dingy with motor was left well-secured to the dock and I had a local look after it. Although not gated there is always somebody at the marina the dinghy was located behind an open-air restaurant. Anyway, whenever the buyer went to pick up the boat 2 weeks later it had been stolen. I'm pretty sure it was an inside job but can't prove it. Lot of ex felons in the area.
He is now trying to get his money back through PayPal. I contend that the boat was his and he waited too long to pick it up.
I talked to eBay and they said if he contests it that he will win because he never saw the dingy in person.
He did file a police report.
I say he waited too long to collect the boat he should have got it immediately while I was there. I also say since he paid in full and was given a notarized bill of sale it was his as of that date. I never guaranteed storage or to look after the boat.
I'll try to post the picture later in case somebody in the area of Fort Myers Beach spots it.
Thanks

I’m having a hard time understanding or believing for that matter, why you wouldn’t have just postponed the pick up? How long before you returned,and why not just wait? Doesn’t add up!!

GrowleyMonster · 16-07-2018, 10:54

The very fact that it was stolen would indicate that it was not secured well enough to prevent theft. Logical?

I have been screwed by buyers on ebay a lot more than I have been screwed by sellers. ebay caters to the buyers. That is where the money is coming from. I sold a razor once that I had invested over 100 hours of labor into. The listing specifically said no returns because I could not later sell a razor (personal hygeine item, after all, and one that often draws blood from unskilled users) that had been used, or even received by a buyer, as a new razor. Fleabay sided with the buyer who probably just had buyers remorse over paying $940 for a razor. Sold it used for $95. THAT guy returned it, too. I didn't list it again and never sold another razor online ever again. Now it is cash in hand, razor changes hands, deal done. Ebay sucks if you are a seller. Not bad if you are a buyer. Especially if you are a buyer with no high level of integrity or honesty.

Selling a boat of any sort on ebay, I would specify strict limits on buyer payment, and pickup, and remain firmly in posession until the buyer either defaults by not coming for it in time, or does come and take it away. And this case is exactly why. The seller has little recourse. Generic contract law isn't the thing here. It is ebay's policies and user agreement. They protect the buyer and figure the seller can look out for himself.

Dooglas · 16-07-2018, 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltyMetals

I do not know the local US applicable law but have done an enormous number of international transactions in many countries. These are normally governed by what is known as INCOTERMS 2000. In the case of this transaction the point of delivery that was agreed was FCA (not FOB). The seller completed the delivery to the agreed point of delivery, BOS had been established (presumably copied to buyer by email), and payment made in recognition of the transfer of title at that time. Hence "delivery" was completed. IMHO it is the buyer's problem. Since title was transferred the seller would find it difficult if not impossible, to claim on insurance since you cannot make a claim for goods for which you do not hold title.

No value has been mentioned but i am surprised it was not locked up. Must hv been on the hard if he had pulled the drain plug. Could have been padlocked w heavy chain to a sturdy fence or concrete block but that is hindsight.

It is unfortunate but legally i think seller is correct. It is the buyer's prblm.
Andrew

Two issues which undermine your argument. The first is the exchange of emails which you presume but which was not documented. The second, and probably more important - there was not an exchange of title signed but both parties. There was no transfer of title at all. The seller prepared a bill of sale, which was not signed by the buyer - not the same thing at all.

rbh1515 · 16-07-2018, 13:01

My thoughts:
I would never sell a boat in this manner. I would be there as the seller to deliver the boat. I couldn't imagine telling someone to just pick it up, its sitting at so and so location. If I was going to be out of town, I would wait to put my boat up for sale when I was in town. If I sold a boat and had to leave to leave town for a few days I would tell the buyer that we should complete the transaction once we were both available!
I would never buy a boat in such a manner.
Both parties acted irresponsibly IMO.
If it goes to court, only the attorneys win!
Rob

thruska · 16-07-2018, 14:42

With all the info the seller gave the buyer, it would behoove the buyer to GET the purchase asap . Who takes two weeks to get a paid item left out on the open ? On the other hand , where was the guy who was supposed to keep an eye on it? Seems like theres lots to be desired in this transaction. Istill side with seller. When you pay for something go get it pronto!

tomtriad · 16-07-2018, 14:59

It seems that the buyer never received the original notarized bill of sale, and that it was signed only by the seller. OP states he emailed a copy - so buyer never received the original bill of sale. Is it legal to execute a Delaware bill of sale in Florida? Does Delaware require both buyer's and seller's signature? It seems there's a flaw on the Delaware paperwork which didn't include the Boats VIN. How "well secured" was the boat - was it locked to the dock? I think this was very negligent on the part of the seller. Also pretty lax on the part of the buyer, to wait 2 weeks knowing the boat was not in possession of the seller. Offhand, I'd side with the buyer who never received proper documentation, and who claims he never got the goods. It will be interesting to see how this all works out.

dbraymer · 16-07-2018, 15:12

Here is how you do it next time. Seller posted a picture of a diesel engine. I sent a buddy to review the engine in operation. Buddy verified an operating engine not smoking at all.

We agreed upon a price with the following details. I pay with paypal. I do not accept the engine until I have it in the back of my truck. We agree upon a day that the engine will be pulled, and I stood by and got the engine within an hour of it being removed from the previous boat.

When I had the engine, we both called eBay, and I verified that I had received the goods that were as advertised. Within several hours paypal released the money to the seller.

1. buyer knew that product existed

2. money held in escrow until buyer and seller both satisfied

3. both buyer and seller at hand for transfer. we actually signed a bill of sale as well

live and learn

Lihuedooley77 · 17-07-2018, 11:05

Did not go thru all of the posts....

For future thought, with us planning on being out of town, and to secure the deal.

1. Handle the whole transaction in human being person. He hands you the money, you hand him the dink painter. What ever date and time works.

2. Thru the computer web . Have a contact in the area , a friend or buddy, and give him a key to the locked up dink cable. Give the purchaser your friend's phone number. The guy calls your pal, he meets him at prearranged time. Buddy gives the buyer the key to the lock and cable that also runs thru the outboard. Buyer signs a chit that he received the dink, time, date and place. Done deal.

Then, when you get back, treat your buddy to a happy hour libation and lunch and have a grand time.

If the buyer does not call, the dink is still soundly locked to the dock, or whatever. Then you can contact the buyer once you are back in town.

Of course this is for future reference since the dink is gone, the OP will probably have to pay the guy back.

Unfortunately, a dink sitting near an open air bar is really an open opportunity for it to be stolen. Sorry to say, but true.

Bare Boating, and using a dinghy to go ashore, we generally locked the dink and outboard with a strong cable to something very secure. Never had a dink stolen. This idea was not always possible, or needed .

Just a plan or two among the many to prevent future problems .

tomtriad · 17-07-2018, 13:23

Here are the instructions for executing a Delaware Bill of Sale for a boat from the Delaware (https://eforms.com/bill-of-sale/de/d...-bill-of-sale/)

"The Delaware Boat Bill of Sale is a legal document that is used when one sells, purchases, or trades a vessel in the State of Delaware. This will provide not only, all of the information needed to prove that the sale was legal, but it will transfer ownership and provide protection to both parties. This document will require notarization. No one should sign the form until the services of a notary have been retained and everyone is present."

A legitimate Bill of Sale was never executed, so the boat still belonged to the seller when it went missing.

hellosailor · 17-07-2018, 14:42

The Uniform Commercial Code applies to all transactions, including personal ones?

Or just to "commerce", i.e. between businesses for business purposes?

Or is ebay stating that ebay chooses to apply it to all transactions, regardless of whether they would normally be applied?

john61ct · 17-07-2018, 15:00

Again, eBay (and PayPal now separately), make their judgment call in favor of protecting buyers 99% of the time.

Again (and again) the legal technicalities of an individual scenario **are not relevant** IRL, unless you want to spend thousands on lawyers.

I have already stated above how sellers can adjust to that reality without avoiding those platforms completely.

john61ct · 17-07-2018, 15:05

The opinion of members about the legal issues, or "whose side" they support, what they think is right or wrong is like debating how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

There are no angels folks, and all that matters or the reality, that the decision is up to eBay & PayPal.