What's Your Opinion? Firearms or Not?

[EagleSailTwo]

I have aboard a rifle, wasn't my choice of gun, but was given to me by my father who used to hunt deer with it.

If I should ever come into a pirate's trap while cruising some remote place, your damn right I'm gonna have means for survival even if I have to kill to survive!

[Lostmt]

I feel a firearm onboard is ok. Just how many are willing to pull the trigger is another story. It takes a special kind of person to take another life even in self defence. We all think we can but can we. Are does the show of a weapon just make us more apt to die. We don't have much and I will let whom ever have what they want except my wife or my life. I can replace everything I have in time. I will help them even pack. I am ex Army 9th ID VNV 67-68 but raise a hand to hurt the ones I love and you will die without question.

Fear is what the low lifes thrive on and if they don't see fear in you they will leave you alone. Even in other countries they respect power in ones being. Never back out of a place you might not feel confortable being in. Try Compton Calif on a late saturday night in the 70's walk into a resturant and back out. Some on this forum will know what I mean. Bad place for a white couple. We were treated with respect and we gave respect in return. Nice meal and left without any problems.

Just how I feel and I will have my 357mag to shoot sharks with that try to eat my boat.

Oh, I have been to 17 foreign counties and every state in the U.S.

[Gator81]

I'm still a newbie around here, so I've been keeping kindof a low profile on this. I did ask the question in my "meet&greet" post, tho, so I'll throw my 2 cents in.

I've figured out the reason why I feel somewhat ambivalent about it. In most places I've lived (6 of the 50 United States, but never abroad) the laws are more or less consistent, in that having a gun in my home and using it against intruders in reasonable circumstances is OK, but having a gun hidden on my person or in my vehicle (without a concealed carry license) is not OK. I've become accustomed to that dichotomy, and I'm OK with it even though some of its premises are debatable.

The problem is, now that the wife and I are seriously discussing living on a cruiser for long periods of time when we retire, I'm having trouble fitting that new set of circumstances into my experience. On the one hand, that boat would be my home, where my wife and I sleep, and I feel I should have the right to defend us against intruders. But it's also a vehicle, likely to carry us joyfully into new jurisdictions where the law takes a dim view of armed visitors, just as the law here on land feels about a pistol under the car seat.

I can't control what or who comes into my neighborhood, or chooses to come in my house through a locked door. But I can choose where I go. If a place seems so dangerous to me that I have to carry a weapon, maybe it deserves a little thought about going somewhere else instead. And if my neighborhood were so dangerous that I was scared to go to sleep at night, I'd move.

Seems to me the important thing is to weigh what is to be gained against what is to be lost. More simply, is keeping or carrying a weapon worth the trouble? There are risks on both sides.

For years, I kept a .45ACP in the nightstand by the bed, full magazine and empty chamber, loaded with Sure-Shok rounds. I've had military training with firearms, and earned my Sharpshooter qualifications. I will hit what I shoot at, and it will die quickly. Moreover, I know better than to think that showing a gun is a defense. I had absolute certainty that I would never put a round in the chamber of that weapon unless I knew what/who I was going to kill. There is no room for hesitation there. Fortunately, that's never happened. Along the way, I became a dad. And when my daughter and her visiting friends got to be older, I decided that the benefit to my peace of mind from having that .45 close by was no longer worth the worry. So the gun got locked up alongside my hunting and sporting guns. And there it stays, at least for now. I simply decided that the risk of having it close at hand was now greater than the risk of NOT having it close at hand. Of course, you never know what's going to happen tomorrow. I may get bludgeoned in bed in a home invasion robbery. But if I put that weapon back in the nightstand, I may come home from work to find that one of my daughter's idiot teenage friends has just killed himself, playing Roy Rogers. So, for now, I'll just double-check the locks at bed time, and give the dog a treat whenever she growls at something in the dark.

Oh, and I still don't know what to do about keeping a gun on the cruiser. Depending on a flare gun or spear gun seems kinda silly, but I'm a newbie and maybe that's the most practical thing to do. OK, I'll be quiet and go back to lurking now....

[hellosailor]

Gator-
With the arguable exception of a trailer chocked & blocked in a trailer park...US gun laws have always treated "home" to mean real estate and nothing else. AFAIK all US laws consider a boat to be a vessel, not a home, with the exception of the IRS's generous consideration that anything with a bed, sink, and toilet is a "home" for tax purposes--and tax purposes only.
So get used to it, your civil rights will be cropped once you move from a home into a "vehicle". Many of us don't agree with it, but no one has figured out a way to convince the courts that a home is a home regardless of whether it is afloat.

"into new jurisdictions where the law takes a dim view of armed visitors, just as the law here on land feels about a pistol under the car seat."
Ayup. When you go to the land of a new king, you go by his rules and his permission. Unless you plan to leave the gun twelve miles offshore & pick it up on your way it, it will be a problem. If you must take a gun, a double-barrel shotgun is most likely to be acceptable in those countries that will allow anything. It tends to be recognized as having valid sporting purposes, but that doesn't mean it is allowed eerywhere. Not by far.

"If a place seems so dangerous to me that I have to carry a weapon, maybe it deserves a little thought about going somewhere else instead."
Yes again. There are wide parts of the world where I have no desire to spend my time. Either due to insects carrying disease, or hostile fanatics, or just too many other more atttractive places coming first on the list. It may not be very warm in Scandanavia, but you don't hear about many armed battles with drug runners there either.<G>

"More simply, is keeping or carrying a weapon worth the trouble?" I'd also suggest thinking outside the box. There are many things that, while not as effective as guns at long range, can be weapons at shorter range. Including many household chemicals that would be unquestioned worldwide. (Of course, if you believe the TSA, toothpaste and deodorant are deadly weapons too.<G>)

"So, for now, I'll just double-check the locks at bed time"
Bravo!

"Oh, and I still don't know what to do about keeping a gun on the cruiser."
Yeah, you do. There's very little worth risking long time in a foreign prison. You carry what's legal, and avoid the places where that isn't enough. Or, like Joshua Slocum scattering tacks on deck, you try to out-think the bad guys.<G>

[Pura Vida]

I've read through this thread and have some ideas but can anyone tell me why this is such a popular topic?

[Gator81]

"I've read through this thread and have some ideas but can anyone tell me why this is such a popular topic?

Pura Vida,
I think it's because the idea of being in a situation where a lethal weapon may determine the outcome is probably the most dramatic situation most of us can imagine ever finding ourselves in. And very few things pack more drama into a smaller and potentially permanently life-altering package than a gun. Combined with the Neanderthal-level instinct to protect our homes and families, and it goes from a rational to emotional real quick. That, and we watch too many old movies where the hero with the gun saves the day...

[ssullivan]

GET A GUN AND GET IT NOW. I know I will. Of course, proper training and the will to use it are important. I'm not sure I would bring it on vacation to the islands, but it should come in DAMN handy for problems here in the States like I nearly had last week. Also, they are great for hunting.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Interesting thread. I have learnt one thing, don't approach an American Boat - unless armed with a Bazooka!

FWIW, my take on the debate is that their is no right answer, but for me it would be no gun mainly to avoid the legal hassle, but also cos' I know that whilst waving a gun around may well scare off some folk, it is also a good way to get yourself shot, cos's you always have the disadvantage of not knowing how far the opposition is willing to go, and the only way to counter this is by adopting a consistent shoot first policy - which to me doesn't sound like much of a holiday!

In practice I reckon most folks attitude realxes about firearms, for no other reason than they watch less TV when onboard!!

[Lodesman]

Well, I wondered when someone was going to dig up this old thread - who woulda thunk it would be Sean to do it
Excuse my ignorance - what happened last week?

Kevin

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by ssullivan

BASED ENTIRELY ON THE GRIFTER POST: GET A GUN AND GET IT NOW. I know I will ...

Does this suggest that Fraud (or other, undetermined transgessions) is a Capital Offence, at least in your waters?

[hellosailor]

Sometimes it is better to risk being shot, than to risk being taken. There are slower, and longer, and more painful conditions that someone can put you in--as opposed to shooting you dead right up front.

As Machiavelli pointed out so many centuries ago, the synonym for "unarmed man" in any language is "slave".


Gord, you know, in the places where justice is harsh...People sometimes think twice before getting on the wrong end of it. Send a few grifters to China for a free trip to the organ bank, and some of the rest think about finding a new line of employment. Once you KNOW he's guilty...there's no reason to waste a lot of time and money on 'em, is there?

It's a funny thing, but an honest man will ALWAYS back away when he hears someone chamber a round. Especially a twelve-guage shotgun being racked. The folks who don't back away, or at least get REAL slow and still, always mean to do something ugly.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

... Once you KNOW he's guilty...there's no reason to waste a lot of time and money on 'em, is there?

... It's a funny thing, but an honest man will ALWAYS back away when he hears someone chamber a round. Especially a twelve-guage shotgun being racked ...

Most modern societies operate under the principle of “proportionate punishment”, often expressed under the motto "Let the punishment fit the crime"*. Civilised people(s) generally reserve the death penalty for the most heinous crimes. I don’t believe that even the most rabid proponents of execution would suggest that all crimes are capital offenses.

The sound of a pump shotgun being chambered, certainly carries a universally understood message, with a very high “pucker-factor”:
1. That you intend to, and can, shoot the intruder/assailant**.
2. Where you are located.

Are these the messages you want to send to a (supposedly) dangerous intruder?

*Lex Talionis is a fancy Latin phrase meaning the law of equivalent retaliation. The Mosaic Code (Exodus 21:23) of "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, ..." was a law aimed at making the punishment an appropriate equivalent to the offence committed. Wrong doing must not go unpunished; on the other hand, however, the punishment must not be vindictive or excessive
It should be remembered, that one of the primary reasons for the law's existence (indeed the state's existence), is that people are to be relieved of their need to strike out against those who have wronged them.
There's a Chinese proverb to the effect that "The person who seeks revenge should dig two graves.”

** The purpose of chambering a shotgun is to load a round. The purpose of loading a round is to shoot.

[Canibul]

If a boat full of bad guys is approaching you in broad daylight with bad intentions, chances are that they are prepared to be able to overcome you. That probably means you are outgunned, and by people who are knowingly taking risks with their own lives. You can be sure they mean to minimize that risk. If you pull out your popgun, shotgun, whatever firearm you think you are going to use to defend yourself, they are already anticipating that. They will blow you away.

If they are boarding you at night, they have not only the bad intentions, and weapons to make it happen, they have the element of surprise. If you hear a loud "thump" on the deck at 3 am, dont you think they are aware of the fact that they just made a loud 'thump"? Dont you think their guns are out, and cocked?

I am looking at this as if I were the bad guy. I really would be prepared, awake, alert, and loaded for bear. I would long ago have made the decision that the risk I was taking was worth YOUR life. I wouldnt be stumbling around in the dark looking for the pistol. And I would react with my fullest ability at the very first hint of a threat to me.

I am a long time gun nut. Hunter, target shooter, reloader, the whole bit. I got my first rifle as a christmas gift from my grandfather when I was 4 years old, and have owned firearms for the 51 years since then.

I have to agree with the people who say pulling your own gun will most likely escalate what violence is already in the cards. And you are not going to win it. I dont like that assessment, but I believe its probably true.

And what, exactly, is 'winning'? You kill someone, and have to live with that. Its not an easy thing to live with. John Wayne movies kind of gloss over that part, how an intelligent and normally friendly and caring person feels for the rest of their lives after taking another life. Even if justified. even in self defense. Why do you think that police officers who have to kill in the line of duty are sent to shrinks? And they are trained, hardened, toughened, and half expecting it.

If your best friend is dead, and your son is paralyzed for life, but you still have the boat cause the bad guys ran away, did you win?
Nah, your insurance company won. And you paid for it.

sail in nice places. Be friendly with the locals. dont worry about being arrested and thrown in jail. Or hung.
Unless you are sure the bad guys are only armed with machetes, you are already outgunned if there are more than one of them. Ever hear of a pirate crew of one armed with a single shot pistol? Naah.

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Does this suggest that Fraud (or other, undetermined transgessions) is a Capital Offence, at least in your waters?

Not at alll, Gord. I'm looking at it as a defense for situations like I just about had. It has nothing to do with fraud, but more to do with what might have happened if I had let this crook stay on the boat with us, or had a problem during the sea trial.

I still think they make little sense while cruising outside one's own country, as the legal ramificaitons are too great. However, given the vast division between rich and poor in the USA, as well as the number of crooks we have running around... it makes great sense domestically for us.

[Fishspearit]

This is from another popular source that a lot on here have probably heard, from a popular Caribbean Island.
"On the evening of June 18, 2006, a Dutch flagged sailboat anchored just outside the entrance to the lagoon was boarded by three men who beat the captain unconscious, took turns raping his wife and stole cash, electronics, and a laptop computer."
Not very often, but these things can and do sometimes happen, even in "safe" places. I know we all love playing these 'what if' scenarios in our head, and the outcome is usually based on our own bias. Personally, I don't see how having a gun onboard would have been a problem in that scenario.

" Interesting thread. I have learnt one thing, don't approach an American Boat - unless armed with a Bazooka! "

Yes! That's the way I like it. Let that flag hanging off of the back serve as notice, if your a friend you're welcome anytime; if you're looking to rob and pillage, you better move along and find another boat because I'm probably armed and dangerous.