Would you shoot ...

[Gisle]

I'm not sure if I should bring any firearms for my circumnavigation.

Would you shoot somebody to keep on living the dream of cruising around the World?

[rob d]

The subject of firearms on board is one that will probably be rehashed as long as there are cruisers out there.
Check the laws for where you are going, no sense ending up in jail or loosing the gun.
Be sure that you can safely and capably handle a firearm. It will do you no good if you are not compentent with it, just ventelating a few floating beverage cans does not equate being able to handle the firearm.
Research and choose the firearm that suits your purposes. My personal choice would run to one of the short barreled pump shotguns that are available.
shooting someone even when you feel that you may be in jepordy
Is a hard decision that not everyone can make.
In some instances an ultra bright spotlight may send wouldbe troublemakers on their way at night, It has speeded up the pace of characters walking by here late at night and it will let someone know that they have your full attention.
ONE THING THAT I BELIEVE CANNOT BE OVER STATED.
DON'T SET YOURSELF UP TO BE ROBBED. It has been said many times that quite often travelers, cruisers or tourists set themselves up for trouble with a display of wealth or what appears to be wealth to the locals or traveling preditors.
Blantant displays of expensive watches, cameras and the current travelers favorite the gold money clip with a large wad of cash out for display every time it is pulled out are a few prominant examples. If you are a female cruising by yourself as many do, do you advertise the fact? For anyone, do you leave valuable items on deck? There are probably a lot more that I am missing that others have thought about.

[irwinsailor]

Yes, I would shoot. I would never want to. I planed to carry a hand gun on the boat but now I'm not so sure I want to deal with the hassel. Some of the ideas that I have read look good to me, like flare gun, speer gun. search light. ball bat. etc. Why carry if you don't need to?

[Pisces]

Rob was right, just letting someone know that YOU
KNOW they are there is sometimes enough. Crooks like to hit the unaware. I carried as a cop on duty and off. Handling a weapon must be instinct. You need to do it without thinking. Hesitation can get you killed. Nerves can cause you to make a mistake. Along with being willing to fire the weapon and be somewhat accurate, you must also be able to RETAIN your own weapon. All that said, there are advantages to a gun. You have to be alot closer to hit someone with a ball bat. This decision is one a captain should mull over carefully.

[Denimboy]

Its a cut and paste from www.setsail.com (http://www.setsail.com/s_logs/martin/martin.html)

Guns & Pirates
By Dave and Jaja
Jaja and I do not like guns. Except for the weapon we carried with us last summer in Svalbard (for protection against polar bears) we have never carried a gun on board. In the twelve years that Jaja and I have been cruising we have not been in a situation when we wished we had a gun for protection against humans.

If you come on deck to greet strangers with a weapon in your hands you could change a situation that might be passive, into a situation that is decidedly aggressive. If pirates have approached your boat they are probably a little hyped up and the sight of a gun in the hands of the intended victim is going to alter their psychology to new levels of frenzy and hostility.

In the case of the LORNA in Venezuela, they found themselves in a situation that was dominated by extremely bad luck. How could they have possibly known that the fishermen were really dangerous criminals? Had the husband gone on deck with a weapon he may have been shot in the heart, or the head. They may have shot his wife. If the LORNA had had a weapon it would now be in the hands of the pirates who could then use it on other yachts. I think the LORNA coped with the situation to the best of their abilities. If I was the husband I would probably have done exactly as he had. There is not much we can do when a madman attacks us by surprise.

If the wife had been able to arm herself it probably wouldn't have had any effect on these men. She might have been able to pot one of them but the others would have attacked with a vengeance. This couple faced untold horrors but they did actually survive without brandishing a weapon. Would their chances have been better with one?

In Johannesburg, South Africa, where bandits are famous for stealing your car while you sit behind the wheel at traffic intersections, a clever person invented a creative deterrent. By pushing a panic button on the dash, propane-generated flames shoot out from under the car and sizzle would-be attackers.

Maybe on boats in the Western Caribbean you could install high powered, 1000-watt stereo systems near the gunwales. When madmen approach you could hit the panic button and blow them away with the mega bass cranked to extreme levels. Give 'em a beer and they'd probably start dancing. Another idea is having high-powered water jets mounted in the gunwales that spray attackers. 2000 psi ought to do it. Perhaps if we confuse bandits just long enough it would change the momentum of an attack.

My point is, shooting back at pirates isn't going to work. It could even make the situation worse. If we carry a gun and shoot whenever we see a suspicious looking fishermen there are going to be a lot of dead fishermen floating around.

The Western Caribbean is famous for piracy, dating back centuries. Rampant tourism has also created hostilities. To be safe, we can cruise in company with other boats, arm ourselves, or use trickery. Is it worth it? Every locale has risks attached, and not every "native" we meet is going to value life as much as we do. Even in America there are certain places to avoid after dark - or even in broad daylight.

Perhaps the best way to avoid the piranha is to swim in a different river.

[Popeye]

You all know I don't need a gun

Give me some spinach and they will:

[GordMay]

There are several questions each of us must answer for ourselves:
1. Do you want the "hastle" firearms will engender in much of the world?
I cannot think of a country that "welcomes" armed foreigners.

2. Have you the skill AND the willingness to use a firearm?
I think the skills can be acquired; but the psychology to actually use the weapon may be more difficult - and do you want to live that way (always ready to shoot)?
3. Are you likely to be prepared to shoot, under the appropriate circumstances?
Will the gun actually be aboard, or locked up in some beurocrat's safe (ashore).
If aboard, will the weapon be handy when needed ?
Will you want to store the gun, so that it IS handy (kids)?
4. What is the likelyhood of your actually needing a firearm?
How unsafe is your intended cruising ground, and should you really be there?
5. What is the likelyhood of your firearm actually being an EFFECTIVE defense?
Will you be sufficiently armed to repel or deter the kinds of people ("animals") against whom other forms of self-defense are not likely to be effective?
6. If YOUR answers (above) suggest the advisability of carrying firearms, have you made a "descision tree" detailing when & how you would expect to use them - or do you expect to make these important descisions "previously unconsidered and in the heat of the moment"?

As stated by others, there is an opinion for every cruiser .
It's an important descision, that deserves MUCH consideration.

It's a different world "out there", and a different way of life. - to which many of your shore-based habits may not truly apply.

Hope to read many more opinions here. I may post further to this thread, wherein I'd present some of my personal experience & opinion.

Armed, but not /w guns,
Gord

[GordMay]

FIREARMS ABOARD???

An acquaintence of ours declared his handgun and ammunition to Bahamiam Customs when entering.
Three months later his wife committed suicide, with the gun, while he was ashore (Geeorgetown, Exuma). Many witnesses placed him ashore when the gun's discharge was heard (also by many).
The Bahamian investigation revealed that he STILL had the number of rounds he'd (mistakenly) declared.
He spent three months in a very bad prison, before being finally "cleared" and released.
He's not "welcome" in the Bahamas anymore.

Anchored in Nassau, NP, Bahamas; we were silently approached (around midnite) by thieves.
Our dinghy was tied to the stern of "Southbound" (tho' lights were out, we asleep), suggesting that we were likely to be aboard.
I accost the potential boarders (winch handle in hand) who depart post haste. They were (likely thieving) cruisers.
No harm to anyone/anything.
Next night, we're silently approached again.
These potential puirates turn out to be cruisers in need help (O/B engine stalled). I help them out, & we make some great friends.

In neither case did the display/use of firearms TURN OUT to be appropriate.

How would I have known, in time to effect a more forcefull defense, that this situation MIGHT have been more seriouse than it turned out - requiring firearms?

As an aside; the next year we"lost" some fishing gear (rod/reel & spear) to other cruisers.

Respectfully,

[Gisle]

You have some really good points here Gord. I really don't think it's worth it bringing firearms to be able to cruise where you want.

I'm looking forward to reading some of your personal experiences & opinions.

[MelissaK]

I figure I'd get shot with my own gun when they come to steal the thing. Two houses I lived in were burglerized, they were after the guns I had. American woman living alone in the country at the time, seemed everybody had guns.

If some goon wakes me in my cabin, I have bugspray to blind him with, and duct tape. If said goon is armed, he just might find himself at the bottom of the sea. Years back, a friend took such a fellow ashore the next day, and the cops groaned; he was habitual. Three weeks later, he boarded another boat, murdered the wife, and chopped up her husband with a machete. I don't think my friend will ever forgive himself.

For petty thieves, a flash camera for the odd small harbor where everyone onshore would know the hooligan. And an airhorn. I generally stay in gentle places, which is restrictive, but OK with me.

Cheers,

Melissa, s/v Vinga

[GordMay]

The Seven Seas Cruising Association website has an interesting/informative "Piracy" bulletin board.
Go to:
www.ssca.org/pirates.htm
then click on "Morning Dew"

[Popeye]

Originally posted by GordMay
The Seven Seas Cruising Association website has an interesting/informative "Piracy" bulletin board.
Go to:
www.ssca.org/pirates.htm
then click on "Morning Dew"

Thanks Gord!

[ASA]

As one who as carried and used side arms, long guns and bows regularly. I would have to say to carry any firearm and not be able to use if is defective thinking. If you feel that where you are going to a place where you need to protect yourself, think twice on going. The best weapon in the world is .......the brain.

In the protection field, the best offense is a good defense, be able to hold off someone from the boat, once on it's too late. a good radar that will warn of oncoming traffic. Keeping a watch on deck, travel as a group, keep a secondary radio available from capt's room, know who to call for help. see if there is a way to access deck lights from two or more points on the boat. Deck lights lighting up is an instant heart attack to most of the trash who are trying to steal something.

As far as weapons, I enjoy bow hunting, I have always wanted to try to bow fish. Important point, most of these problems, the perps tried to enter from a small inflatable. These are not very good at holding air with three 1.5 razor cuts in them. But this is something that I know I can do in limited light situations. This is a skill that has taken 5 years of daily practice; the only advantage is that at 60 yards, I hit a 6 inch circle.

When we dive, we always do what? Plan our dives, then in the water we Dive our plans. I think in this case we need to plan out boats, then boat our plan

[graham]

More then anything, I would love to live in a world where I did not need anything to protect myself with, and wished that I could go cruising forever with the relief that everyone along the way was a friend, but that's a dream!

I have firearms, and know how to use them, although I haven't touched them in 15 years except to twice a year open the safe to make certain no corrosion is taking hold. I'm no gun fanatic, I'm more interested in music CDs, books and good food, but they are there because I'm the kind of person who lives for the best in life, and is always prepared for the worst.

In this age, it seems the worst is always around the corner, terrorists, climbing violent crime rate, even cults like the one they suspect actually killed Lacy Peterson, (Go figure, I really thought it was her husband), that sure fooled the heck out of me, and even in my wildest most prepared dreams, I still can not imagine anyone doing something so awful to another living thing, human or animal!

I do not keep a gun out ready though, not even a bullet, I figure in my home, late at night, the chances are too great of someone I love getting hurt, so a baseball bat is all I want, or really need, and even that is in questionable reach as things and life gets shuffled every day.

But on a boat, Alone at sea, sometimes days away from any authority, or any friend, what would you do if one of those evil doers decided to take your home, and basically kill you and yours?

How will you protect yourself, your possessions, and your loved ones when, AT BEST, you are turned out in the open sea in your dingy, as the modern day pirates sail away on your $100,000.00 home?

I figure, I'll make a list of every port and country with their particular gun laws, try to stay away from the ones that arrest you no matter what, and with the great majority of others that simply hold your firearms while you are there, I'll be glad to llet them keep it while I'm anchored offshore, using their beaches and restaurants, and be lad for one less worry while in port.

Sailing with friends over the years, declaring the captains firearm has always been fairly easy, a mere formality of landing, and mostly met with friendly and understanding officials.

I would always have a Mossberg or Winchester SS 12 Gauge aboard, an old 30 cal can with cleaning kit and 25 rounds 00 buck and 25 of slugs.

On board there are tools you use for survival, compass, gps, liveraft, BOB bag, watermaker, etc etc and a shotgun, just another tool that needs to be respected and taken care of because one day you may need it to cover one of those emergencies that come up while cruising.

The gun is broken down and kept in a weather tight case, with the shells, and locked up, but handy if the need ever arises.

Worst come to worst, emergency forces you into a port that will arrest you, dump the lot in the drink, it cost $350.00, you can always buy another.

As an experienced and in the know gun owner though, I would never carry a pistol or revolver, nor any kind of assault rifle, nor automatic rifle, not even a bolt action or lever rifle.

While the shotgun I will use is perhaps a more devastating weapon then even an AK47, (an it is), it is also thought of as more benign and acceppted then any other, even a small 22 pistol to officials seems more questtionable.

And If your aim is to protect you and your loved ones, and your home, I don't care how well armed the thief is, an 8 shoot 12 gauge pump with 00 buck can and will overwhelm most anyone, and usually all it takes is to know you have it, that shinny Stainless Steal, even unloaded, pump it once, that Kir-klick kir-klick, the odds are, they'll be gone before you've brought the target in line!

[ASA]

There are two different ways to look at this. In a perfect world, yes you are correct. As much as I would not like use a firearm, if needed I will shoot and make sure the target is down.
Now, I try to follow the same rules I was taught 10 years ago in personal weapons and consealed weapons:

1) if I am pulling my side arm out, I am prepared to use it.
2) you cannot shoot to wound. That only happens in the movies.
3) The target has to go down, and target stays down, by any method.
4)Use any method to defend yourself, anything you have, use it.
5) Bullets cannot be pulled back. Be sure of the tartget and what is behind it.


I am not advocating shoot first, rather if you have made the decision that your life is in danger, and deadly physical force is the only answer, there cannot be any hesitation.

As a hunter, I practice quite a bit. But, I also don't keep ammo seperate from weapon. We have no kids in the house, and when someone visits, we keep the room locked.



please don't think of me as a right wing nut. I believe in protection, and protecting my family and property.