Quick release VS hard tie in of tether to PFD

[davil]

thanks for all responses,the cylinders look brand new and as long as continue sailing in protected waters will maintain them as they look brand new,shinny and perfect.
If my plans change in the future and go offshore then more likely will renew with new and more updated equipment.
thanks again

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by thinwater

It does NOT say that. In the context of a regulation "supposed to,"like "fair, is a made-up word that means whatever we want it to.

Only the written words count. If they meant "release under load" it would have said that. It was discussed and the wording you see was chosen.

---

I'm not saying there isn't often a good case for release-under-load. I'm just sayin' it is neither universal nor mandated. It just isn't.
l
For example, Suijin's example is completely irrelevant to a catamaran sailor. We end the tethers aft so we can go forward and the bow area is wide; we're working 10' from the lee rail. MOB risk is generally well aft.

OK, I shouldn't have implied that the OSRs mandated "release under load". However, I think it's a very good idea, and wouldn't like to use anything else.

[Jim Cate]

this thread has suddenly achieved real life significance. See the new thread about the recent fatality in the Clipper race.

Sad.

Jim

[davil]

Originally Posted by Trekker

Davil,

Old age is not creeping up on me, it's gaining by leaps and bounds. In my last post I wrote Georgetown instead of St. George, but there are several Georgetowns I've sailed to so please forgive the mixup.

Where in N.C. are you? I lived in Oriental and built a marine business there while the town developed into a sailing center and a favorite ICW stop. Had a hand in several other nearby sailing businesses and delivered boats along the Atlantic coast and Bahamas for 30+ years, completing something over 200 delivery contracts in that time. Sold all business interests in early 2000's but still keep my favorite boat there. Moved to Washington (State) three years ago to be near daughter and her family. Advancing maturity, cold water, big cities, aren't for me but loved ones are.

If you want to continue this sort of chat we need to move off this great site...

Andy

sent you a PM

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

this thread has suddenly achieved real life significance. See the new thread about the recent fatality in the Clipper race.

Sad.

Jim

The fact of the matter is, if you go overboard in any sort of weather your chances of survival are extremely low. If you are knocked unconscious in the process then they are effectively nil.

It seems like most deaths are the result of crew not being clipped in at the precise moment water washes over the deck. They might be in transition from one hard point to another, or disconnecting preparing to go below, or similar. I believe that was the case in the Clipper Race death but I have not seen specifics as of yet.

I've said my piece on QR vs. hard tie but it occurred to me to express the tradeoff a different way.

The probability of needing the QR capability, and having it make a difference is far higher than the probability of unintentional release at the precise moment an event that might take you overboard occurs.

If you have a solution that gives you a higher confidence of having both issues addressed to your satisfaction, bravo.

[Nani Kai]

Originally Posted by Trekker

Yep, age has a way of sneaking up on you. My first trip to Bermuda was aboard one of the first Bristol 35's built. Our nav gear was a compass with no fluid! Charlie, the Captain, a retired A/F B-52 navigator, said we didn't need a compass.

"Sextant," I deduced?

"Nope, not that either. Sailed this trip many times. It's easy."

"How will we know where we are???" He would show me. "Okay, " said I.

Charlie's last duty station was Bermuda. He flew into and out of there hundreds of times. I had no doubt he knew the way. We headed due east out of Beaufort Inlet for two days... east being a guess, so I thought.

"Not a guess." Looking up, he said. "See those white streaks in the sky ... they all lead to Bermuda. Think about it. There's nothing else out there. In a day or three a huge pile of cumulus clouds will be on the horizon and Bermuda is directly underneath them."

Contrail navigation. 100% dead on.

We had a small scale chart aboard for Bermuda and three days later we motored into Georgetown Harbor with it, cleared Customs, and partied like crazy for a week in the O-club with a bunch of pilots and flight crews. Whew ... my liver couldn't take much more.

"How will we get back, Cap," said I?

"Easy. Head toward the setting sun until a large Continent shows up. That should be the USA. Then we sail along the coast until a fishing boat appears and we'll call him on on 2182 (kHz, A.M.) and he'll tell us."

The only truly functional nav gear aboard was a leadline!

The first offshore harness I ever had was handmade on this trip, fashioned from 3-strand cotton line and galvanized shackles. It dry rotted away in the lazarette of my old wooden Dickerson 27 in the early 70's.

I may dry rot away, too, sitting in front of this computer all afternoon ... but this is about as close as I can get to real sailing people anymore.

Love this post. Thanks for the memories. As a dive boat charter captain in the 70's and 80's we didn't have GPS to locate dive sites. Instead we used triangulation of three pairs of marks on shore like range markers: Steeple of a church lined up with giant spruce tree on the mountain; flagpole lined up with notch on the ridge; etc. Always mystified passengers as we would stop in the middle of nowhere, drop the hook and go diving. When they later asked me "how did you know where to drop the anchor" my most often response was "there's an X painted on the side of the boat. I just drive until the X lines up with the dive site." Usually they would nod sagely and tell the other passengers what a wise old salt the skipper was.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Suijin

The fact of the matter is, if you go overboard in any sort of weather your chances of survival are extremely low. If you are knocked unconscious in the process then they are effectively nil.

It seems like most deaths are the result of crew not being clipped in at the precise moment water washes over the deck. They might be in transition from one hard point to another, or disconnecting preparing to go below, or similar. I believe that was the case in the Clipper Race death but I have not seen specifics as of yet.

Appears he was clipped in but "became separated from the boat". From Clipper Race website:

Simon, 60, from Bristol, UK, was on the foredeck assisting with a headsail change from Yankee 3 when he was washed overboard. Although he was clipped on with his safety tether, he became separated from the yacht in the Southern Ocean at approximately 0814UTC (1414 local time) in a rough sea state, in 20 knots of wind, gusting 40.

The team’s man overboard recovery training kicked into immediate effect and despite the rough conditions, Simon was recovered back on board by the Skipper and crew within 36 minutes, at which point CPR was immediately administered by three medically trained crew, which included a GP. However Simon sadly never regained consciousness and was pronounced deceased at 0925UTC. The cause of death is unconfirmed at this time but thought to be by drowning.

[davil]

this thread has been very educational,I am convinced the quick release is superior for my preferences and am in the process to adapt what I have,although I am boating in protected waters am alone and will prefer to remain in the boat
However this may also prove to be one of those philosophical discussions? as to somebody who also posted "depends how quick is quick"
Here attached is a photo of the free end of my tether (Lirakis safety harness}
You can?see is cut,the end shows brownish marks that are actually burned surface.
Sailing single handed or short with my wife,I developed my routine of snapping the free end onto the cockpit fastener before leaving the cabin,when I was standing on the first step of the companion ladder.
Process reversed on return to the cabin,also twice a day ill check the stuffing gland for correct dripping and temperature of shaft,
This was on a Tartan 34, the stuffing box,nut,and shaft access right at the foot of the ladder.
Normally will hook the free end onto my jacket to avoid having it tangled on something,
You can see what happened when was picked up by rotating shaft,for some reason ,got caught in a way the webbing was compressed and melted,turning me loose.
My point,no quick release will have been quick enough for me to react,I was mesmerizes just watching,sharp knife? right.
We can discuss the technique used,the wisdom of doing what I was doing etc.
An accept any criticism.
It just was not my time.
I use only the safety harness because I could not see the use of wearing an PFD while watching the boat sailing away,so was concentrated on staying on the boat.
Enjoy

[davil]

this thread has been very educational,I am convinced the quick release is superior for my preferences and am in the process to adapt what I have,although I am boating in protected waters am alone and will prefer to remain in the boat
However this may also prove to be one of those philosophical discussions? as to somebody who also posted "depends how quick is quick"
Here attached is a photo of the free end of my tether (Lirakis safety harness}
You can?see is cut,the end shows brownish marks that are actually burned surface.
Sailing single handed or short with my wife,I developed my routine of snapping the free end onto the cockpit fastener before leaving the cabin,when I was standing on the first step of the companion ladder.
Process reversed on return to the cabin,also twice a day ill check the stuffing gland for correct dripping and temperature of shaft,
This was on a Tartan 34, the stuffing box,nut,and shaft access right at the foot of the ladder.
Normally will hook the free end onto my jacket to avoid having it tangled on something,
You can see what happened when was picked up by rotating shaft,for some reason ,got caught in a way the webbing was compressed and melted,turning me loose.
My point,no quick release will have been quick enough for me to react,I was mesmerizes just watching,sharp knife? right.
We can discuss the technique used,the wisdom of doing what I was doing etc.
An accept any criticism.
It just was not my time.
I use only the safety harness because I could not see the use of wearing an PFD while watching the boat sailing away,so was concentrated on staying on the boat.
Enjoy

[thinwater]

Actually, there may have been a failure of some sort.

The race co-founder Sir Robin Knox-Johnston said a new type of tether was being used in the race but that something had “gone wrong”.
“Whether it is a type failure or a one-off failure – we won’t know that until it has been examined,” he said.
Competitors have been told to use both clips on their tethers as an extra precaution in the meantime.

[RobertoD]

All the new tethers I have seen - and construction safety tethers for industry, have clips that require two distinct points that need to be compressed to be released .The first releases the main clip needed to unclip the tether. Reason . . a single point release can accidently be released if twisted on the attachment point. This happened on a major ocean race where a crewman was swept overboard and his boat-attachment single release point clip twisted against a fitting which released it. It is a new, usually mandated, safety feature and all the new tethers I have seen incorporate it.
Danger of going overboard when tethered on a quickly moving sailboat is being dragged through the water, usually face forward from chest located attachment point on the life vest/harness that drags the crewperson through the water face forward, forcing water into their mouth and nose. Offshore vests now have face shields to prevent this.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by RobertoD

All the new tethers I have seen - and construction safety tethers for industry, have clips that require two distinct points that need to be compressed to be released .The first releases the main clip needed to unclip the tether. Reason . . a single point release can accidently be released if twisted on the attachment point. This happened on a major ocean race where a crewman was swept overboard and his boat-attachment single release point clip twisted against a fitting which released it. It is a new, usually mandated, safety feature and all the new tethers I have seen incorporate it.
Danger of going overboard when tethered on a quickly moving sailboat is being dragged through the water, usually face forward from chest located attachment point on the life vest/harness that drags the crewperson through the water face forward, forcing water into their mouth and nose. Offshore vests now have face shields to prevent this.

After my post 55 it was determined that it was a type-failure. As stated above, the clip failed in a light (500-1000) pound side load.


ANSI and ISO industrial and climbing clips meet a tough side load test. However, at this time ISO sailing tethers are NOT required to meet any side load test. The British investigation board said a side load test (which ISO and ANSI have used for decades) would be too hard o develop. Go figure. The major brands have all switched to ISO rated biners tested to a side load standard and include TWO pressure points to open.

[barnakiel]

Each kind has its own pros & cons.


It is good not to get nuts over one case of somebody dragged by their boat and drowned. Lesson learned, move on.



It is good to use leash that is short enough and keep one INBOARD at all times.



b.