Military surplus parachute flares

[CarlF]

Flares are just about useless in real world distress situations. People regularly see them but confuse them for something other than a boat in distress. It even happened with a professional bridge crew on the USS California that saw multiple Titanic distress rockets and discussed it but didn't feel it was reason to wake the Captain.

I got rid of all of my pyrotechnics a few years ago when the last set expired. They are dangerous to store and use. Many are duds. It's prohibitively expensive to carry more than a few SOLAS parachute flares - and everything else doesn't attract much attention. And these days it's very difficult to dispose of them legally once expired. Instead to meet CG requirements I carry a flashing light and flag (which is useless but meets the requirements).

Your money is better spent on more modern distress signaling technology than a bunch of Czech flares that will soon expire anyways.

Over 3 miles - Inreach with a EPIRB/PLB as backup, ship VHF radio, Cellphone, AIS MOB

Within 3 miles (and communicating with a chopper) waterproof VHF handheld radio (2), a mini 300 lumen waterproof LED flashlight and whistle on everyone's harness. Plan to soon have an AIS MOB for everyone.

[Dougtiff]

Back in 1968 i went to Vietnam on a contract, upon completion, i stayed in S.E. Asia, bought boat, and cruised the area for a few years, i had a M79 with the parachute flares on board, those babys really light up the area at night, great for entering a strange Anchorage in the dark, wish i still had it.

[seabreez]

Originally Posted by Water Dragon

I've learned that one can get surplus Czech military 26.5 mm flare guns and parachute flares. These would have some obvious advantages over the little Orion 12-gauge flares; particularly, they will hang in the sky and burn a lot longer. I'm mainly just asking out of curiosity at this point, but my questions are: (a) if I can get recently-manufactured 26.5 mm flares and shoot them out of a surplus military flare gun, would that be a legal signalling device for USCG purposes; and (b) if I reload an empty flare cartridge, would that be legally a new flare?

If your boat is from the US, you get US approved flares. The flares are tested and limited to pleasure craft use... no more! Flares from other countries are overpowered and overrated and out right dangerous to use by yourself and others on your vessel should they use the flares to protect you! Believe me! I have dismantle over 97,000 flares that were expired and yes I have fired many for demonstration and training purposes in pleasure, military, police and coast guard training. Do not be stupid in having non approved flares on your vessel for others to use. If you want to be stupid... you fire them... make sure someone is on stand-by to take you to the hospital. Also make sure you do not injure some innocent by stander person by doing so.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Dougtiff

Back in 1968 i went to Vietnam on a contract, upon completion, i stayed in S.E. Asia, bought boat, and cruised the area for a few years, i had a M79 with the parachute flares on board, those babys really light up the area at night, great for entering a strange Anchorage in the dark, wish i still had it.

I can just imagine trying to pass that off as a flare gun
I never knew they had a flare grenade, makes sense, just never heard of one.

[thunderhoof]

I believe you need to have the signal flares and launchers required in your jurisdiction. If you are boarded,with or without an incident, you want to be totally legal.
Having extra stuff that can be safely launched should be of no interest to the authorities, but could save your bacon on a really bad day.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Assuming these flares even work, I feel sure they won’t be as bright or last as long as a SOLAS flare.
Redneckrob, you guys have hover hold maybe by another name, but you do don’t you?
A friend that flies them told me the little Dauphin would shoot an automated approach to a hover, it won’t?

On edit, you have never seen the sky light up until you have flown by an MLRS unit firing at night
This is single shot, but when they ripple fire it’s really a sight.
https://youtu.be/lzCWeCJMxFU

We did have two hover hold modes and did routinely do coupled approaches to the water in the H-65. The approaches to the water worked great to put you in a 50' forward air taxi. The actual hover hold though wasn't usable in seas over a few feet. When a trough came by it would sense you were high and descend you right into the face of the incoming wave. And don't you know it but most cases happen when seas are greater than a few feet.
Actual hovering is still entirely a visual maneuver, glancing through the goggles for horizon if there is one, and looking under them at whatever little bit of flotsam or foam you can use as a reference along with a quick glance at the artificial horizon and radalt as you switch between goggles and visual on the scan.
For the other posters, I can say I easily flew several hundred hours on flare sightings, so we did take them very seriously as an organization. Aircrew hated them, because they were false alarms 99% of the time. The lights of a squid boat 10 miles out can look exactly like the arc of a flare as they go up an especially big wave and back down, and jackasses shoot off flares as fireworks all the time. The real value of flares, and the time I found them extremely useful, is when you got out a distress call or you're overdue and we're searching a vast stretch of ocean for you. We can see a flare on goggles from quite far away, miles further than we can see your boat and orders of magnitude further than we can see your raft. So they aren't great for alerting the system that you're in distress, but they're invaluable for finding you once we're searching.
And in that case, a massive parachute flare doesn't do you a bit of good. If we're close enough for you to hear us, we can see your 12 gauge flare extremely well on goggles no matter where we happen to be looking when you fire it. If you can't hear us or don't otherwise know we're coming, you're wasting your flares just to fire them off. The parachute flares can make it very hard for us to maintain night vision needed to hover though, and we usually arrive on scene with barely enough gas to pick you up. So just don't, please.
As far as safety, we fire thousands of flares for practice on the Coast Guard every year; aircrew all had to do it annually. I don't know of anyone ever getting hurt. A lot of those were pencil flares....if you think the 12 gauge is rickety! I hear your concern, but real world data shows it is unwarranted. If anyone has any conflicting data as opposed to personal opinions on the matter though, I'd love to hear it.

[Jim Cate]

Redneck, I appreciate your thoughts re flares. However, you are looking at them from the air. Proper SOLAS parachute flares or similar are most likely to be noticed by another sea level observer, ie ship or other small craft, when other means of summoning aid have not worked, and no helos are aloft searching for the distressed vessel. The short duration of the other types make them much easier for a watchkeeper to miss seeing.

My own belief is that flares in general seldom work in this application, as others have suggested upthread. Modern methods, when they work, are so much better. I'm also particularly concerned about firing any pyrotechnic from an inflatable, especially a life raft, in a choppy sea. Burning a hole in a tube is not a pleasant outcome!

Other than the usual chaos on New Years eve, etc, I've only seen flares once when at sea. I was some 12 miles off the coast of New South Wales and saw two flares in the distance, shoreward, separated by perhaps a minute. That sequence is often touted as a good practice, and I thought it was real distress situation. Made the appropriate call on the VHF and started in their general direction, with no idea of the distance from them. After some 30 minutes I was able to raise a VMR station, and they made some phone calls and finally discovered that it was a flare safety demo from a small YC, and the announcement hadn't been sent out widely. Kinda peed me off... an hour lost from our passage, heading in the wrong direction, a lot of adrenaline wasted and our watch schedule disrupted. But, those parachute flares do get your attention far better than the short lived rocket type... whatever the proper name for them is.

A final comment/question: when we left the States in 1986, the SF CG group's advice was to retain outdated flares to supplement one's current dated ones. Made good sense to me, and over the years we accumulated quite a few of them. Imagine my surprise to learn that in Queensland, it is an offence to have outdated flares on board. Not sure about other states here in Oz... anyhow, there is no routine means of getting rid of such flares beyond very occasional special days when one or another depot is set up to receive them. So, I'm wondering what the current advice of the USCG is on this matter? Technically I believe that as a US registered vessel, I'm bound by their regulations, and could argue that thus that I am allowed to have them aboard if the question should arise.

Jim

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by Wallaby

I carry a Czech flare gun plus a 12G insert, with flares for both. Height and burn times are very different. I also carry a USCG approved plastic flare gun. Frankly, I feel safer with metal separating me from an explosive flare. I also carry many more than the required number of flares. A couple of flares fired at 3:00 am 12 miles off the coast, GOOD LUCK.

Well twice the range is good, but with third world surplus, I’d just hope it does not explode or do something unfortunate

Originally Posted by redneckrob

So pissed I'd execute an immediate instrument takeoff to a safe altitude to regain our night vision, at which point we'd be bingo fuel and head home, and you'd delay your rescue by probably an hour or two. All because... heck I don't even know why in the world one would want to use surplus Czech 26.5mm flares to replace the tried, true, and legal flare set you can get for $50?

Please tell me this is just mellow drama?

[Michael Cobbe]

If you want a flare gun check whether you need a firearms cerficate. If you have one then you have to declare it to cutoms and they will keep it until you leave.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

Please tell me this is just mellow drama?

Overdramatic in the reasoning but not the actual action. If you don't have night vision you can't hover over the water at night in most cases. A big parachute flare will wipe out your night vision. At which point the only safe thing to do is wings level, nose on the horizon, pull power and ITO. And as I mentioned, unless you're close to both shore and our air station having to do that maneuver and wait for our night vision to come back probably uses up the gas we were going to use to pick you up so we're going to have to go refuel. If you're lucky we've got another up helicopter and can recall another crew to come out slightly sooner. All in all though, an incredibly dumb thing to do, even if you don't care about the safety of those coming to rescue you and are only concerned about your own rescue. So no melodrama there, just facts.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Redneck, I appreciate your thoughts re flares. However, you are looking at them from the air. Proper SOLAS parachute flares or similar are most likely to be noticed by another sea level observer, ie ship or other small craft, when other means of summoning aid have not worked, and no helos are aloft searching for the distressed vessel. The short duration of the other types make them much easier for a watchkeeper to miss seeing.

My own belief is that flares in general seldom work in this application, as others have suggested upthread. Modern methods, when they work, are so much better. I'm also particularly concerned about firing any pyrotechnic from an inflatable, especially a life raft, in a choppy sea. Burning a hole in a tube is not a pleasant outcome!

Other than the usual chaos on New Years eve, etc, I've only seen flares once when at sea. I was some 12 miles off the coast of New South Wales and saw two flares in the distance, shoreward, separated by perhaps a minute. That sequence is often touted as a good practice, and I thought it was real distress situation. Made the appropriate call on the VHF and started in their general direction, with no idea of the distance from them. After some 30 minutes I was able to raise a VMR station, and they made some phone calls and finally discovered that it was a flare safety demo from a small YC, and the announcement hadn't been sent out widely. Kinda peed me off... an hour lost from our passage, heading in the wrong direction, a lot of adrenaline wasted and our watch schedule disrupted. But, those parachute flares do get your attention far better than the short lived rocket type... whatever the proper name for them is.

A final comment/question: when we left the States in 1986, the SF CG group's advice was to retain outdated flares to supplement one's current dated ones. Made good sense to me, and over the years we accumulated quite a few of them. Imagine my surprise to learn that in Queensland, it is an offence to have outdated flares on board. Not sure about other states here in Oz... anyhow, there is no routine means of getting rid of such flares beyond very occasional special days when one or another depot is set up to receive them. So, I'm wondering what the current advice of the USCG is on this matter? Technically I believe that as a US registered vessel, I'm bound by their regulations, and could argue that thus that I am allowed to have them aboard if the question should arise.

Jim

We're actually saying the same thing. Flares of any kind are almost useless for letting the world know you're in distress. And as you mentioned there are a bunch of modern and even some old classic methods like a float plan that are far better. But they can be very useful in finding you once someone starts searching. At which point a standard 12 gauge is just as effective as a big parachute because your not going to launch it until you can see or hear a potential search asset and if you can see or hear them they can see a 12 gauge flare just fine, even if they're on the water.