How much water does your foul weather gear hold?

[thinwater]

Keeping you dry is one thing. But what it the gear holds so much water that hauling an MOB out is impossible?


Yes, don't fall off. Let's not waste the thread on that.


I thought of this while paddling the other day. I was in white water and rolled the kayak. A dry suit actually makes you buoyant, so no problem. A good paddling jacket should hold the water out long enough that you can roll up before it floods ... usually. But not always, and then your top becomes very heavy, which is a problem.



I suspect some of you have had the experience of being in the water in a dinghy smock or paddling jacket in the water. If you lift you arms they drain, but at your sides the cuffs hold water in. A lot of water. Same with pants. I never fasten the cuffs too tight, because the water has to drain. But some of the suits come with tight neoprene cuffs and Velcro. Boots, of course, hold some water.


I was testing some weather gear">foul weather gear and one jacket had a liner that held 15 pounds of water. Yes, it drained in a minute, but that's too long and they will not pull you aboard. Unlined gear gained very little weight.



My favorite gear is all un-lined 3-layer Goretex. Another thing is that it dries faster.


---


Thoughts on cuffs and linings?

[wholybee]

I highly recommend and look for a US Sailing "Safety at Sea" in person class. It's 2 days, the first being online, and the second being hands on. One of the things you do is put on all of your foul weather gear, an inflatable life vest, deploy a liferaft into a swimming pool, then jump in the pool. Swim to the raft, and haul yourself in. The foul weather gear is heavy. Also, swimming is almost impossible with an inflatable life vest. You can't move your head, and can't lift your hands over your head. It's a very good experience. One thing that surprised me, every single person with an expensive spinlock with hydrostatic trigger had difficulties getting them to inflate. They had to dive to about 6 feet of depth before they worked. Every single vest with a pill worked perfectly.
Other things done in the class, repack our life vest, we set off various types of flares, an EPIRB, got to try out and see DSC emergency, and use a selection of tools to cut rigging wire of different sizes.
I have inexpensive gear from West Marine. I layer, so the overalls and jacket are both lightweight but mostly waterproof. I add layers underneath for warmth. Synthetic fabrics with no cotton.

[Don C L]

It is absolutely true that foul weather gear, and any jackets and pants really, will make you very difficult to pull in, and pretty near impossible to perform self rescue while you have them on. As a river guide there were occasions when either I or someone else got thrown in and had to get extricated. Being able to remove all your gear including PFD if needed is a very good thing to practice. And my own PFD is a high float paddling jacket because I CAN swim with it on and it holds my head up higher out of the water, (from experience.) I wouldn't choose foul weather gear on the basis of ease of recovery though. Mine is pretty easy to remove if needed because I get a size larger than I need; I like it flopping around.

[thinwater]

Interesting reactions.


I've been in the water in foul weather gear, just in calm conditions, no PFD, and didn't find it that difficult.

• Unlined gear does not hold water. Linings have no place in foul weather gear IMO. They slow draining and slow drying. I prefer 3-layer laminates for anything more than a wind breaker.
• You don't lift your arms out of the water to swim. Obvious once you realize it doesn't work. Float and breast stroke. The clothes themselves are weightless in the water.
• I don't fully understand how it affects you head; the first thing you do is swipe the hood back.

But you do have to think differently and be comfortable in the water.


What I've noticed in testing is huge differences in how garments trap water. Some trap little, some a lot, particularly linings.

[Kettlewell]

Never tried wearing them in the water, but I have been using Grunden's fishing foul weather gear for many years. No lining, and very loose cut so they fit over warm clothes. I suspect the foul weather gear wouldn't hold much water, but I don't intend to find out! Since our boat has a pilothouse I am almost never out in the weather, and often the only thing I am wearing in a light rain when dinghying back and forth is a backpacking type single-layer waterproof jacket. I don't think that would hold much water either.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Never tried wearing them in the water, but I have been using Grunden's fishing foul weather gear for many years. No lining, and very loose cut so they fit over warm clothes. I suspect the foul weather gear wouldn't hold much water, but I don't intend to find out! Since our boat has a pilothouse I am almost never out in the weather, and often the only thing I am wearing in a light rain when dinghying back and forth is a backpacking type single-layer waterproof jacket. I don't think that would hold much water either.

Fisherman need stuff that washes easy and dries easy. Good stuff.

[Kettlewell]

Fisherman need stuff that washes easy and dries easy. Good stuff.

Lasts forever too. I think my current set is around 18 years old, showing no signs of deterioration. Still 100% waterproof. I've also got an old Helly Hansen fishing jacket my mom got used at a yard sale in Maine--probably 25-30 years old. Still perfectly usable.

[Goodall_M1]

Originally Posted by wholybee

I highly recommend and look for a US Sailing "Safety at Sea" in person class. It's 2 days, the first being online, and the second being hands on. One of the things you do is put on all of your foul weather gear, an inflatable life vest, deploy a liferaft into a swimming pool, then jump in the pool. Swim to the raft, and haul yourself in. The foul weather gear is heavy. Also, swimming is almost impossible with an inflatable life vest. You can't move your head, and can't lift your hands over your head. It's a very good experience. One thing that surprised me, every single person with an expensive spinlock with hydrostatic trigger had difficulties getting them to inflate. They had to dive to about 6 feet of depth before they worked. Every single vest with a pill worked perfectly.
Other things done in the class, repack our life vest, we set off various types of flares, an EPIRB, got to try out and see DSC emergency, and use a selection of tools to cut rigging wire of different sizes.
I have inexpensive gear from West Marine. I layer, so the overalls and jacket are both lightweight but mostly waterproof. I add layers underneath for warmth. Synthetic fabrics with no cotton.

I did the equivalent RYA course some years ago.
Much the same syllabus with time in the pool and very informative!

One thing to watch out for is that swimming pool chlorine and most foul weather gear do not make a good mix...

My GILL jacket lost its waterproofing and the lining later fell apart.
If the sailing school offers to lend you their waterproofs then take them up on the offer.

[Kd9truck]

I co-wrote and taught with the “water rescue” unit in FDNY a tactical training unit, as a Lt then at the rank of Capt. 100% yes to the weight of the gear. In the development of the curriculum we tested a lot of gear and known methods.
Hear is some fun facts discovered while testing.

Few rescues are completed in under 10 min. try treading water in your gear and PFD at the next safety at sea for 10 min and get in a life raft. I swim a mile a day 4-5 days a week. It’s not easy.

Keep your gear and PFD on,ESPECIALLY YOUR HARNESS, humans are like 300 lb jellyfish when the body goes limp. The harness and PFD gives the rescuers something to haul you with no harness are going to have your gear pulled off you before you get on deck and then you will be so so slippery.
Crotch straps are crucial.

In cold water the “foulies” lined or unlined keep you warmer and when you hit the water the lined gear will float you longer, a min on average. Give you time to stop hyperventilating from the cold and the shock of the situation.

the warmer victims could (on average) help with their own rescue more because the cold had not sucked the energy out of them. This heat advantage tenuates as time passes. At 15 min. In water under 60° fit yong men are half as strong and at 25 min. Most have a tuff time understanding simple commands 150 athletic men between 25-30 were tested.

You gain an average of 30 lbs of weight out of water, the more you are lifted out the heavier you get. This is not rocket science but if you are trying to haul a victim it maybe lost in the moment. To this point a mechanical advantage is the only proven way to approach getting a victim back on board.

Inflatable PFDs mustang, spinlock, are designed to float a certain weight, most of us have under sized vests. While the possibility of the vest not inflating is real, the fact that you can manually inflate is huge. You can’t add air to a closed cell foam PFD

Closed cell foam PFDs the big orange ones,they do provide a better thermal barrier but also they start to lose bouncy in as little as 10 minutes, the tenuation continues and can be as significant as 2 inches of freeboard in 24 hrs. Most freeboard on PFDs for the appropriate weight is 3 inches
(Freeboard in this context is the lower corner of the mouth to the static surface of the water.)
If manpower permits, “live bait” a rescue simmer teathered will take 1/3 the time to get the victim on board. That’s with the least skilled swimmer.


Cheers

[WnC]

Does anyone have any experience using full neoprene foul weather gear? I am currently testing out a neoprene hoodie and farmer johns wetsuit. It won't keep me dry if the swell is pumping but its keeping me warm once I do get wet. Its also buoyant so inflating the PFD is only important if the man overboard is unconscious.

[floater88]

I tested out my HH floater suit I use for ice fishing. I stepped off a dock with my rubber boots on. What a shock that was. The boots instantly filled with water and then the suit filled with water. I barely kept my head out of the water and I couldn't turn around to grab the dock. Good thing I did this with other people around. After they stopped laughing they helped get me out. Needless to say I won't be using this suit in the boat.

[Kd9truck]

I have a sterns cold water immersion suit that is 12 yrs old and still water tight and dry inside there’s no sinking and you will roll over face up if you go unconscious, but super awkward and you will sweat in it.
I have neoprene booties and gloves in my off shore kit even wet they keep me toasty. XTERRA makes the gloves and booties.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Kd9truck

To this point a mechanical advantage is the only proven way to approach getting a victim back on board.

Yes.
This is where running backstays can be a great advantage, but they need to be rigged correctly and have plenty of line.
You rig a fiddle with becket as the upper block and fiddle lower block, the hauling part from the upper block.
Make the upper block far enough above your head so that when two-blocked the entire purchase is well above the lifelines.
Now you have a 4:1 purchase that enables you to stand at the lifelines while you haul away.
With your midship cleat you can secure the falls and then bring a person over the lifelines, (and you thought pinrails between the lower shrouds were just old fashioned appurtenances).
Trying to use a halyard and mast winch can work with two people on deck, but can get complicated with only one person.
You'll also find that runners rigged as such can come in handy for all sorts of lifting operations.
As an aside; On a boat with a wire bobstay a person cannot hang on to it for very long, nor can they pull themselves up it.
A chain bobstay can be held and can be climbed up.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

You rig a fiddle with becket as the upper block and fiddle lower block, the hauling part from the upper block.
Make the upper block far enough above your head so that when two-blocked the entire purchase is well above the lifelines.
Now you have a 4:1 purchase that enables you to stand at the lifelines while you haul away.

Yes. I had some concern about this and even though my boat has pretty low freeboard I got a dedicated 4:1 rig ready in a bag for an emergency if needed to run from the arch or boom. Even if someone is conscious, if they are chilled they won't have much strength for a self-rescue or climbing up a ladder.

[Kd9truck]

We have a 4x1 block on a 2 ft prussic loop that can be used around the boom or from the dingy davits (I deflate and store my dingy during passage). Its pre rigged to my drogue I figure there’s more urgency to a rescue deployment than a sea break imho. a footless main lets me hoist from the end of the boom and land the victim in the cockpit.
The dingy davit lift is a we bit harder as the davits necessarily hoist out side of the transoms foot print…and it’s much harder to keep my vessel stern too an object and more of a chance of the victim being swept under by a wave.
Having a plan and drilling on it annually in fun pristine conditions lowers the stress levels and increases the success threshold should the day come when that heavy wet gear keeps you from being able to self rescue back on board.