Navionics Price increase...$10 to $50?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Maybe you mean AP instead of app? Your comment didn’t make sense.

I tested this with a B&G/Simrad AC42 Autopilot.

When you check documentation, you see which PGN’s the AP needs and then with the YachtDevices gateway you can see how the PGN’s convert to/from NMEA0183. Also, you can scan and see what goes where. iSailor sends the right NMEA0183 sentences that are converted to the correct PGN’s.

Do you have a documentation for Isailor? I cannot find any doc on how to get your ap working.

Thats basically what i done. I scanned with YD NMEA scantool what Isailor is transmitting eg +10 STB and then what my st6001 was sending to Ap doing the same Then modified the server so it does that conversation. Part works, part still not.

[sailingharry]

So, from Jedi and Rivet, I think I have gleaned two pearls of wisdom.

First, these apps are not actual autopilot systems, but rather AP controllers. That makes a lot of sense.

Second, and this is weird, but it seems that they can control the AP. I say this is weird, because my old Garmin 545 (old boat) and Furuno MFD8 cannot control the AP (on both boats, old-ish versions of Raymarine, using ST-1). They can send track info, and the AP can use that (I think -- I rarely use tracks). It really seems to me that NMEA missed out big time by not including control sentences to turn on/off, +/-10 degrees, etc, both on 0183 and N2K.

So, am I right about it only being a control? And, does the app actually engage/disengage/control the AP, or only provide track/waypoint info that the "real" AP controller can use?

If it has the ability to actually control the AP, that would be worth learning more. As my boat sits right now, I have precisely ONE place the AP can be controlled, and the dog (Australian Shepherd) knows exactly where to sleep to block that control.

[CaptainRivet]

An autopilot normal consits of a control head (in my case Raymarine St6001+) that controls the Autopilot computer (in my case Raymarine S2 with external gyro) and the ap computer steers then the actual actuator (in my case electric lineardrive type1) electrically.
The software emulates the controlhead by sending the same NMEA or seatalk1 sentences/PNGs, thats where you have +/- 1 and 10, engage and disengage AP and switch mode.
The actual track information comes from chartplotter/software via nmea. Some chartplotter can directly steer the computer, other go via the controlhead. Look into manual of your chartplotter how he does it. Eg on mine you need to engage and disengage ap via the controlhead and can then use chartplotter or controlhead to steer ap.
The app does both emulate controlhead and chartplotter.
BUT eg a Garmin N2K chartplotter cannot directly steer a B&G ap computer even its also N2K, you need then a B&G controlhead.
There are standard NMEA sentences/PNG and proprietary ones that control/Steer the ap computer.
For isalior the trick is now that it sents generic/standard NMEA0183 pngs and only if your ap understands that standard PNGs then your are done. If not then you need to convert the standard PNGs into proprietary ones or N2K a that your ap understands. Thats done by the wifi to nema dongle) that converts them and puts it onto wifi

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

So, from Jedi and Rivet, I think I have gleaned two pearls of wisdom.

First, these apps are not actual autopilot systems, but rather AP controllers. That makes a lot of sense.

Second, and this is weird, but it seems that they can control the AP. I say this is weird, because my old Garmin 545 (old boat) and Furuno MFD8 cannot control the AP (on both boats, old-ish versions of Raymarine, using ST-1). They can send track info, and the AP can use that (I think -- I rarely use tracks). It really seems to me that NMEA missed out big time by not including control sentences to turn on/off, +/-10 degrees, etc, both on 0183 and N2K.

So, am I right about it only being a control? And, does the app actually engage/disengage/control the AP, or only provide track/waypoint info that the "real" AP controller can use?

If it has the ability to actually control the AP, that would be worth learning more. As my boat sits right now, I have precisely ONE place the AP can be controlled, and the dog (Australian Shepherd) knows exactly where to sleep to block that control.

It seems that iSailor in combination with a YachtDevices gateway that does two directional conversion between nmea0183 (used by iSailor over wifi) and nmea2000 can control a Navico (B&G, Simrad, Lowrance) autopilot but can not (fully) control a Raymarine autopilot.

Let me start by saying that recently there was an announcement from YachtDevices that they have a firmware for their products that does some Raymarine conversion so that older autopilots can be controlled with new controllers? Check that Rivet, it may be what you need.

Navico autopilots are descendants from the famed Robertson Pilots. A no-brainer to select these over others imo. My last Roberson had both RobNet and Simnet connectors as it had just been acquired by Navico. A little later I learned that they don’t need real control heads like AP’s used to be.

So for my AC42 I opted to control it with my standard Triton display in combination with a keypad.p (see picture). Both the display and the keypad have just an nmea2000 connector and you can pair them to make the display a dedicated AP display or just keep it universal.

Then I got iSailor and found it could control the AP. iSailor also supports an Apple watch and you can control the AP from that!

I tested this on a difficult heavy weather offshore passage from Panama to Jamaica, where I did all AP control with iSailor. I don’t have an Apple Watch, but used a wristband for my iPhone and could control it from anywhere aboard.

I also tested the Navigation mode, i.e. steering to a waypoint or even following a route. This works perfectly, as long as the iPad I used is on, with iSailor active, doesn’t go to sleep mode etc.
The reason is that the AP needs all kind of messages about heading to waypoint, cross track etc. at high frequency to keep steering. I found that not handy because I want to weite emails, check weather etc. so decided I need something dedicated and instead of buying a dedicated iPad, I got a Black Friday special at Defender and got a 9” Vulcan plotter with 4G radar. This can fully control the AP as well incl. even more options than the Triton controller (for example, I can opt for wind mode as well as no drift mode).

This years I decided to buy the wireless remote control for the AP and we’ll see how I like that.

So yes, a simple app on an iPhone or iPad can control a B&G AP.

[sailingharry]

Rivet,
Our systems are very similar. ST6001 (maybe +?), driving a different head (an ancient but highly reliable Type 300) and a Raymarine linear drive. Controls are all ST-1. My chart plotter is a Furuno, which as you point out won't directly control the AP. I do have various bits that convert ST-1 to N2K and 0183 and pump it to wifi, all bi-directional.


So, since we are very similar and you seem to have yours set up (with iSailor?), some specific questions -- all asking about iSailor control:
* Can you turn on/off (auto/standby) the AP? It sounds like you can't. Bummer.
* Can you give +/-1, +/10? Sounds like you can.
You mention the converting of standard to proprietary is done by the dongle. Is that built in, or does it require configuring? What dongle do you use?
Thanks!
And apologies for derailing the thread....

[sailingharry]

Jedi,
Some good stuff in that reply.
First, the Triton is awesome! I put the Triton 1 on my old boat, I do miss those displays.
I wish that NMEA had done a decent job of including basic AP stuff in the PGN list, as well as the old 0183 list. I don't think that basic stuff is hard to implement cross-platform. Maybe some fancier stuff. It may be there, but it seems no one uses it.
I may need to go look at YachtDevices. The challenge, given my dated suite of electronics, is how much do I spend keeping it on life-support, before I just pull the plug.
Time to go read up on YachtDevices and look at (or download!) iSailor.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Jedi,
Some good stuff in that reply.
First, the Triton is awesome! I put the Triton 1 on my old boat, I do miss those displays.
I wish that NMEA had done a decent job of including basic AP stuff in the PGN list, as well as the old 0183 list. I don't think that basic stuff is hard to implement cross-platform. Maybe some fancier stuff. It may be there, but it seems no one uses it.
I may need to go look at YachtDevices. The challenge, given my dated suite of electronics, is how much do I spend keeping it on life-support, before I just pull the plug.
Time to go read up on YachtDevices and look at (or download!) iSailor.

Here is that announcement. Note that they just started selling their own AP which can even be controlled from a web browser! I am waiting for the more powerful version but will buy that one as spare and testing

https://www.yachtd.com/news/#04102023

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Jedi,

About the old equipment: with a product like this you integrate nmea0183 with seatalk with nmea2000 and with wifi. It allows you an easy upgrade path:

https://www.yachtd.com/products/wifi_router.html

[Mike OReilly]

I just received a clear response from Garmin regarding the status of downloaded charts if you do not renew a license.

From "Julian" at product.support@garmin.com:

"The charts that are still loaded to the device, they aren't removed but not useable until subscription is renewed. "

This makes this tool untenable to me. Especially given Garmin's propensity to arbitrarily and significantly increase its pricing. I will be seeking alternatives before my renewal date comes up.

[Don C L]

Break out the moldy paper charts and rusty dividers!

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

About the old equipment: with a product like this you integrate nmea0183 with seatalk with nmea2000 and with wifi. It allows you an easy upgrade path:

https://www.yachtd.com/products/wifi_router.html

Awesome Jedi, thank you.
That was exactly what i needed without you knowing that i do.
I am also changing my Raymarine e7 MFD which has NMEA0183 and N2K to an Axiom 7+ which only has n2K. I didn't realize the axiom+ is not supporting the old St6001+ and S3G ap anymore (thank you f... raymarine) till i read the link you sent. By random i ordered a Yachtdevices NMEA0183 to N2K converter because my AiS is NMEA0183 and Axiom has only N2K.
So i hope the YachtDevices software update will fix that axiom+ can steer the old S3G ap plus shows AIS and that Isailor can steer the autopilot too.
Lets see if that works...

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Jedi,
Some good stuff in that reply.
First, the Triton is awesome! I put the Triton 1 on my old boat, I do miss those displays.
I wish that NMEA had done a decent job of including basic AP stuff in the PGN list, as well as the old 0183 list. I don't think that basic stuff is hard to implement cross-platform. Maybe some fancier stuff. It may be there, but it seems no one uses it.
I may need to go look at YachtDevices. The challenge, given my dated suite of electronics, is how much do I spend keeping it on life-support, before I just pull the plug.
Time to go read up on YachtDevices and look at (or download!) iSailor.

Keep your old AP, use yachtdevices YDWG2N dongle with the software update so isailor gets the NMEA PNGs it needs.

And then get the yacht devices Ap for 349Euro and install it in parallel. So you have 2 working ap in case the 300 dies.
Thats what i do too instead of getting a 2nd used S3G as backup that costs 200Euro, for 150Euro more i get a N2k new one.
Wanted a 2nd ap parallel installed anyhow so that i can switch with a selection switch between the 2.
2 NMEA0183 in parallel is a nightmare, one 0183 and one N2K you need 6 pole selector switch. 4 poles switch the linear drive between the 2 ap and the remaining 2 poles you switch the main power cable between the 2 autopilots. You can keep the NMEA0183 and N2k cables connected.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Here is that announcement. Note that they just started selling their own AP which can even be controlled from a web browser! I am waiting for the more powerful version but will buy that one as spare and testing

https://www.yachtd.com/news/#04102023

Already ordered it.
I will run the yachtdevices AP with Orca core 2, Quantum2 radar and orca app as complete seperate system to my
raymarine MFD Axiom+, Quantum 2 radar, Yachtdevices NMEA0183 to N2K dongle, S3G+ST6001 Ap...
And also get Isailor with ap support as 3rd backup also able to also steer both ap, just radar will be missing then.

[wholybee]

Has Anyone tried/use C-MAP? From what I can tell, $15 per year for worldwide charts. If all you want is a basic chart viewer and don't need other features, it might be a good option. I am evaluating it now.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Has Anyone tried/use C-MAP? From what I can tell, $15 per year for worldwide charts. If all you want is a basic chart viewer and don't need other features, it might be a good option. I am evaluating it now.

My Furuno system only supports c-map. I found it woefully inadequate in Canada. Others disagree with me, but in harbor after harbor I had to use Navionics on my phone because the chartplotter lacked detail.
However, any system on a cell phone in my view is only a backup. I suspect that c-map on the cell phone is quite sufficient. I also find Navionics pricing to be steep for a backup.