Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by Davy J

Don't any of you folks look at the date of the original post...........

Why would anyone resurrect a ten year old thread............??

Hahahaha....... Nope.

I just hit the "new post" button up the top and see what's current, if some has posted since I was last here it comes up regardless of the original date. I don't think it matters when it was, if it's of interest, then it's of interest.

[sailorboy1]

Back on topic, even if old

Coming into the cut a couple days ago here in the Bahamas at 0030 following my chart plotter while hearing the waves crashing on the rocks I was thinking “sure would be nice to have some buoys to follow”. But then remembered how far off the ones in Bimini are and how they almost grounded me last year.

In the end following the buoys or following the chart plotter you are still living the believe they are right.

[s/v Jedi]

10 years further on and still people who believe buoys are crucial. Wish they would all be gone and GPS gets zapped out. That’ll keep the dirt dwelling landlubbers away from our cruising paradise while we go just like our forefathers did

Don’t you ever wonder who put the buoys in for Columbus, Block, Tasman, Cook, Vespucci? For sure they wouldn’t have made it without them!

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

Question......

If you are sailing along a channel with water so dirty you can't see the mud and sand bottom and all the markers seem to be pin point accurate to your GPS. Then the next one is out by 6m or 20' (enough that it may put you aground).

Which one do you work with as you slowly approach ?

It really depends on the specific location. In many areas sand bars move and the buoys are moved with them. The GPS/Chart can not be trusted in those cases.

Charts are also often shifted somewhat, but you should notice that as everything would be out by the same distance.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

10 years further on and still people who believe buoys are crucial. Wish they would all be gone and GPS gets zapped out. That’ll keep the dirt dwelling landlubbers away from our cruising paradise while we go just like our forefathers did

Don’t you ever wonder who put the buoys in for Columbus, Block, Tasman, Cook, Vespucci? For sure they wouldn’t have made it without them!

I am sure then that you don't have any gps chart plotter or a non hand drawn chart

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

10 years further on and still people who believe buoys are crucial. Wish they would all be gone and GPS gets zapped out. That’ll keep the dirt dwelling landlubbers away from our cruising paradise while we go just like our forefathers did

Don’t you ever wonder who put the buoys in for Columbus, Block, Tasman, Cook, Vespucci? For sure they wouldn’t have made it without them!

Most of them ran aground and some lost ships....

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by wholybee

It really depends on the specific location. In many areas sand bars move and the buoys are moved with them. The GPS/Chart can not be trusted in those cases.

Charts are also often shifted somewhat, but you should notice that as everything would be out by the same distance.

I agree, I have seen both, maybe not 6m but behind Fraser Island I had a shift line spear on my plotter and from there on the charts were out. Marker bouys shift or get shifted, one is benificial the other not so much but they both conflict with the plotter.

I do like both especially at night but if there is a conflict between the two, at least you know to be cautious.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I am sure then that you don't have any gps chart plotter or a non hand drawn chart

I’ll adapt anything that gives me an advantage to safe navigation but for at least 20 years I sailed with just compass, binoculars and paper maps showing coastal profile outlines to recognize where you ended up. No problem.

Buoys are obsolete and when they are not in their correct position they are a danger to navigation. When we need to enter where it’s hairy, we anchor out and launch the dinghy to confirm the path, maybe even put some temporary markers in. All this is in places where no markers exist anyway.

Let me think where the last marker is we saw on this trip... the outer buoy of Lake Worth inlet, that was it and it was in the way and an annoyance

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

The same debate once waged about lighthouses. The only lighthouses I see now are museums. Too bad since they could be automated now.

Not in this part of the world. Lighthouses are alive and well and functional and, yes, automated.

Imagine not being able to see Eddystone Rock, except on GPS! A horrifying thought.



Just in England (not the UK as a whole), there are nearly 100 functioning lighthouses. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ses_in_England

The Tower of Hercules, near A Coruna, Spain, has been in continuous use for almost 2000 years (!): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hercules and still functions as a lighthouse today.

The oldest lighthouse in Northern Europe is Kõpu tuletorn, on Hiumaa, in the Estonian islands: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B5pu_Lighthouse in continuous use since 1531 and functioning today, going on 600 years now.

I am awfully glad to see the reassuring light of Kõpu tuletorn when passing the dangerous shoals around Hiumaa at night.

You guys who blithley drive the dot on the chart plotter without cross-referencing to visual navigation aids and other things you can see with your eyes are doing it wrong. Always verify information from the plotter with another source of data! Navigation 101.

[boatman61]

Don't people know what depth lines and sounders are for anymore..???

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by cal40john

Didn't you see that article in a magazine a year or two ago? They were suggesting that Nav aids would become virtual. You look through a HUD and see all the ATONs generated by the software. No more real stuff to maintain.

Next all you need is a wraparound viewscreeen and then you don't need the expense of a boat either, just go virtual boating in the safety and comfort of your home.

John

Actually, this is in the works for cars. Search for Connected Vehicles, V2V and V2I. It's going into the field now but most cars can't take advantage of it yet. The big difference is roads rarely shift position. Also, the potential savings are orders of magnitude larger. I'm familiar with the annual budgets for a state DOT. $40mil for signs and $30mil for traffic signals for a medium size state. This only covering state trunklines. Multiply that out by 50 states and add in county and local roads and you are talking billions per year. That said, it will be quite a while before the fleet is turned over to the point that we can eliminate the physical devices.

The advantage initially will be the additional information they can provide. If you are going too fast into a blind corner, the vehicle will warn or even brake for you. Likewise approaching a signal, it can determine if you can safely enter the intersection. You could also use it for unexpected things...such as determining where pavement needs to be repaired. A simple accelerometer (like in your cell phone) and it can feed back where rough pavement or even individual potholes are. Instead of sending a crew out to drive around looking for problems, they are directed to specific issues saving time and money and prioritizing roads most in need of work.

We are likely to see similar situations with the transition on boats. It will be quite a while before the physical aids are gone but imagine if every coastguard vessel was outfitted with a simple sidescan sonar (under $10k) and the data was automatically uploaded to the internet and incorporated into charts. Instead of relying on decades old data and/or aids spaced at 1/4 mile spacing, every time they run an inlet, you get fresh data showing the latest sandbars and shoaling at maybe a 1ft resolution.

That data could be fed into models and could provide predictions of conditions at inlets and bars.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Marksman

So with nav aids gone, everyone going out for a day sail in a Lightning or similar craft will have to haul along a battery and gps or what ever.

Yep, the horror...try and pry the smart phone out of the hands of the average millennial. A simple waterproof case solves the issue.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by daddle

Most of the world does not have the resources to maintain virtual marks. Moving a simple channel marker to the typhoon-moved channel is simpler.

Also in the big picture virtual marks probably cost more. The expense moves from the government to all the private parties buying a gazillion gizmos. Certainly the gizmos are far more unreliable.

Exact opposite once the system is in place.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Adelie

How about traffic signs and stoplights?

I've installed several. Biggest issue right now is the manufacturers are catching up on building cars with the systems that can see them...but they are coming out.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Finistere

Try the entrance to the Alligator River (NC) virtually. Quite a number of boats use electronic charts only to go aground

For the cost of one buoy, they could outfit one of the CG boats with side scan sonar and update the chart every time the CG runs the inlet.

Add in tide and current electronically along with wave predictions...suddenly it becomes a non-issue running the inlet in reasonable conditions.

Oops..just realized this is a decade old thread...not that it changes the eventual outcome. The only question is how long before they replace the bulk of physical aids.