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View Poll Results: Should navigational aids be discontinued?
Yes! We have GPS and chartplotters now. They just get in the way now! 7 6.67%
No, they are a useful backup to the GPS/Plotter/Microwave/Vibrator thing that blinks at me as I drive the boat. 98 93.33%
Voters: 105. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 30-03-2021, 15:58   #181
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pirate Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
Well the accurate told me I was 300 feet ashore in South Carolina 2 years ago.
And it told me I was traversing some hills as I sailed up the Canakkale toward the Marmaris..
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Old 30-03-2021, 16:48   #182
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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Well the accurate told me I was 300 feet ashore in South Carolina 2 years ago.
Really, they've implemented live chart updates in S. Carolina. Cool, do you have any links to the system.
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Old 30-03-2021, 18:11   #183
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

That is the proof that there is nothing wrong for looking through the from windows, if you have.
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Old 31-03-2021, 04:25   #184
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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True but why limit it to someone remembering to do an update and then only updating a handful of points quite likely missing some critical areas. You're thinking old school when each marker placed was a significant amount of effort, so you kept the number of points limited to what was absolutely critical.

Once outfitted with sidescan and integrated into an online system, it's almost zero effort and no need to remember. Every time you go out, the maps update themselves and show you the entire bottom, so if a shoal is filling in halfway between two markers, you see exactly where it is.

Not saying the project wouldn't have some challenges but it's entirely feasible technologically. The biggest issue I can see is knitting together new data with old where there are major changes such as after a storm but it wouldn't be hard to set up thresholds that would allow automatic warning markers where old data is questionable.
You have missed my point: what I propose can be done today and for some locations is already in use. AtoNís are a regular occurrence on AIS and projecting them even on a map with inaccurate depth contours allows anyone to enter. Any automation to update positions (and increase number of markers) only has to be done on the USCG cutter side and it is instantly available for all boats in the area. Also, it doesnít require Internet / cell coverage.
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Old 31-03-2021, 04:52   #185
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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You have missed my point: what I propose can be done today and for some locations is already in use. AtoNís are a regular occurrence on AIS and projecting them even on a map with inaccurate depth contours allows anyone to enter. Any automation to update positions (and increase number of markers) only has to be done on the USCG cutter side and it is instantly available for all boats in the area. Also, it doesnít require Internet / cell coverage.
And I'm saying the much better system can be done today.

While your idea isn't bad, it would require training and processes be developed.

The CG is a large govt organization (a little shy of 90,000 staff in various roles)...it's not going to be "just do it" at least not on a consistent organization wide basis. You are looking at a formal process to be developed followed by training of hundreds if not thousands of staff along with follow up training and ongoing oversight (think millions of dollars).

Once you go thru all that hassle, just jump ahead to the much better system (again millions of dollars but much more hands off and less susceptible to the vagaries of what the staff are focused on once implemented).

Communications is really not a big issue in the modern world. Live updates implies it's not weeks or months before there is an update to the charts...once updated, there is no issue with the user's system downloading the nearby updates while in range for offline use later.
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Old 31-03-2021, 09:12   #186
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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And I'm saying the much better system can be done today.

While your idea isn't bad, it would require training and processes be developed.

The CG is a large govt organization (a little shy of 90,000 staff in various roles)...it's not going to be "just do it" at least not on a consistent organization wide basis. You are looking at a formal process to be developed followed by training of hundreds if not thousands of staff along with follow up training and ongoing oversight (think millions of dollars).

Once you go thru all that hassle, just jump ahead to the much better system (again millions of dollars but much more hands off and less susceptible to the vagaries of what the staff are focused on once implemented).

Communications is really not a big issue in the modern world. Live updates implies it's not weeks or months before there is an update to the charts...once updated, there is no issue with the user's system downloading the nearby updates while in range for offline use later.
How come you can envision a new system automating distribution of chart updates but not a much simpler new system of updating some coordinates of AtoNís. You spend so much words on how an enormous task it would be to have the USCG update AtoN coordinates manually just to hide that you ignore that automating that would be a fraction of the effort of your suggestion?

Also, how would your system work for the millions of boats that need to start using it? They all need to download maps or buy new, still to be invented, systems that update charts on their plotters automatically? Have you not considered that my suggestion requires no change at all as they just show up on their charts when their AIS receiver gets the messages?
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Old 31-03-2021, 12:23   #187
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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How come you can envision a new system automating distribution of chart updates but not a much simpler new system of updating some coordinates of AtoNís. You spend so much words on how an enormous task it would be to have the USCG update AtoN coordinates manually just to hide that you ignore that automating that would be a fraction of the effort of your suggestion?
I readily agreed in the prior post, your idea would work but because it is heavily dependent on human operation, it's not simpler.

If you are dead set on it, you could integrate it with AIS...that's just another communications link.
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Old 31-03-2021, 13:40   #188
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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That's exactly the advantage of electronic.

Have that side scan sonar tied into the CG boats GPS and transmit the data to the internet and incorporate it into the charts...in theory you could do it in real time but even a day later would be wildly faster than any hope of moving a buoy to reflect the channel.

Think about it: not every CG station even has the capability of moving larger buoys. If the crew notes one out of position, they have to come back in, enter it into a work order. Of course if it's only 20ft into the shallows, good chance they don't even notice it. Then they have to schedule the buoy tender...might be a week or two later. If there is a big storm and lots of buoys out of position, it might be months.

With electronic, it's darn near live updates and then it's a simple matter of downloading the chart...you could even do it in real time like googlemaps (with an offline backup if you lose cell coverage).

If you incorporate some sort of trusted partner program, local police, sea tow and others could be outfitted, you could get on order of magnitude more data coverage. There really is no good justification for any but the most remote waters to have data more than a decade old.

PS: I think your confusion is the old idea of someone sitting at a paper chart with a pencil marking up the chart. This would be a mostly automated process. You might have someone doing quick scans of the updated charts to see if there are obvious errors, but once the system is set up and going, no reason for it to take more than a day before it shows up on the chart.
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I agree that the tech for easy updates to users exists. But most of the current hardware out there doesn't make it that easy to grab updated charts constantly, meaning many people have to replace their electronics. In my mind, however, the lack of outside visual reference is a much bigger problem.
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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
I readily agreed in the prior post, your idea would work but because it is heavily dependent on human operation, it's not simpler.

If you are dead set on it, you could integrate it with AIS...that's just another communications link.
Yea,
GOOGLE CHARTS
It will have to be about the money though, like most things.

And like drivers today, the operators will be looking down at a screen instead of ahead where the impact will be felt. Add auto-helm, auto-furl, auto-reverse and auto-fist shake to all boats.
Unaffordable unless you sell your soul, and your family's, to GOOGLE CHARTS.

I AGREE......click!
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Old 01-04-2021, 19:00   #189
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

My BIL says a yachtsman turned up at Christmas Island (Indian Ocean) with nothing more than a school atlas to guide him. But why did he need that?


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Old 02-04-2021, 06:24   #190
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

Easier now than ever.
Just follow contrails.
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