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View Poll Results: Should navigational aids be discontinued?
Yes! We have GPS and chartplotters now. They just get in the way now! 7 6.67%
No, they are a useful backup to the GPS/Plotter/Microwave/Vibrator thing that blinks at me as I drive the boat. 98 93.33%
Voters: 105. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 30-03-2021, 07:40   #166
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
For the cost of one buoy, they could outfit one of the CG boats with side scan sonar and update the chart every time the CG runs the inlet.

Add in tide and current electronically along with wave predictions...suddenly it becomes a non-issue running the inlet in reasonable conditions.

The challenge is more about making those updates quickly and readily available to everyone using the inlet. To me, having a buoy as a quick visual reference of where another boat is vs the channel (when it's a narrow channel with shallow water around it) is very useful. Without that, having AIS and/or radar would basically become a requirement for every boat, regardless of size (in addition to a chartplotter).
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Old 30-03-2021, 08:11   #167
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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The challenge is more about making those updates quickly and readily available to everyone using the inlet. To me, having a buoy as a quick visual reference of where another boat is vs the channel (when it's a narrow channel with shallow water around it) is very useful. Without that, having AIS and/or radar would basically become a requirement for every boat, regardless of size (in addition to a chartplotter).
That's exactly the advantage of electronic.

Have that side scan sonar tied into the CG boats GPS and transmit the data to the internet and incorporate it into the charts...in theory you could do it in real time but even a day later would be wildly faster than any hope of moving a buoy to reflect the channel.

Think about it: not every CG station even has the capability of moving larger buoys. If the crew notes one out of position, they have to come back in, enter it into a work order. Of course if it's only 20ft into the shallows, good chance they don't even notice it. Then they have to schedule the buoy tender...might be a week or two later. If there is a big storm and lots of buoys out of position, it might be months.

With electronic, it's darn near live updates and then it's a simple matter of downloading the chart...you could even do it in real time like googlemaps (with an offline backup if you lose cell coverage).

If you incorporate some sort of trusted partner program, local police, sea tow and others could be outfitted, you could get on order of magnitude more data coverage. There really is no good justification for any but the most remote waters to have data more than a decade old.

PS: I think your confusion is the old idea of someone sitting at a paper chart with a pencil marking up the chart. This would be a mostly automated process. You might have someone doing quick scans of the updated charts to see if there are obvious errors, but once the system is set up and going, no reason for it to take more than a day before it shows up on the chart.
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Old 30-03-2021, 08:19   #168
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

I agree that the tech for easy updates to users exists. But most of the current hardware out there doesn't make it that easy to grab updated charts constantly, meaning many people have to replace their electronics. In my mind, however, the lack of outside visual reference is a much bigger problem.
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Old 30-03-2021, 08:49   #169
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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I agree that the tech for easy updates to users exists. But most of the current hardware out there doesn't make it that easy to grab updated charts constantly, meaning many people have to replace their electronics. In my mind, however, the lack of outside visual reference is a much bigger problem.
Perhaps not updated charts, but a mainstream MFD integrated with an AIS receiver can display AIS ATONs. This capability has existed for a while now. The authorities can broadcast synthetic and virtual ATONs from land-based stations. AIS transmitters can be installed on physical ATONs and reflect any movement of the structure.
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Old 30-03-2021, 09:00   #170
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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I agree that the tech for easy updates to users exists. But most of the current hardware out there doesn't make it that easy to grab updated charts constantly, meaning many people have to replace their electronics. In my mind, however, the lack of outside visual reference is a much bigger problem.
And that's why I never said (and I don't think anyone else did) that physical aids would go away tomorrow. My guess is it will happen over the next 5-10yrs.

It will likely vary by country. I could see some poor countries actually taking the lead. If they have minimal numbers of aids to begin with and they feel comfortable invoking sovereign immunity regarding the issue to address liability, it's not technologically that difficult and they will see huge improvements. I could see guys in pangas with a cellphone in a plastic bag running about complex reefs using the system very quickly.

At 10yrs old, most marine electronics are outdated anyway. Sure some people still limp along with old devices but just like Loran, they will fade away and people move on to newer options. You will see more and more that are capable of automatic updates. Eventually, it will be like the old guy complaining that he can't buy a flip phone.

The biggest hurdle is likely organizational inertia. This is the way they've always done it. They have all these buoy tenders and trained crews. They don't want to lose the associated funding because management levels are based on the number of staff under them. The agency lawyers are afraid to do anything new. The buoy manufacturers try to pull political strings. Etc... but in the end, there is no doubt things will go electronic. It's just a question of how long to get there.
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Old 30-03-2021, 09:57   #171
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pirate Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
And that's why I never said (and I don't think anyone else did) that physical aids would go away tomorrow. My guess is it will happen over the next 5-10yrs.

It will likely vary by country. I could see some poor countries actually taking the lead. If they have minimal numbers of aids to begin with and they feel comfortable invoking sovereign immunity regarding the issue to address liability, it's not technologically that difficult and they will see huge improvements. I could see guys in pangas with a cellphone in a plastic bag running about complex reefs using the system very quickly.

At 10yrs old, most marine electronics are outdated anyway. Sure some people still limp along with old devices but just like Loran, they will fade away and people move on to newer options. You will see more and more that are capable of automatic updates. Eventually, it will be like the old guy complaining that he can't buy a flip phone.

The biggest hurdle is likely organizational inertia. This is the way they've always done it. They have all these buoy tenders and trained crews. They don't want to lose the associated funding because management levels are based on the number of staff under them. The agency lawyers are afraid to do anything new. The buoy manufacturers try to pull political strings. Etc... but in the end, there is no doubt things will go electronic. It's just a question of how long to get there.
We'll they have disappeared in most of the Thames Estuary.. where 20+ years ago there would be twinkling lights scattering along the various channels now there are next to none.. started happening early 2000
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Old 30-03-2021, 10:51   #172
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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We'll they have disappeared in most of the Thames Estuary.. where 20+ years ago there would be twinkling lights scattering along the various channels now there are next to none.. started happening early 2000
This may well be the way the transition happens. When devices go away and no one complains, they simply don't replace them. At some point, they just stop all together.

Calling out specific points in space (physically or electronically) really isn't needed if you have an accurate chart that shows all the underwater contours at every point.
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Old 30-03-2021, 11:10   #173
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

Even if this is an old thread...

The Wide Bay Bar (Fraser Island, Queensland, Australia) is a perfect example of a place where buoys are not so useful. Shifting sands mean that the channel changes weekly/monthly. The conventional wisdom (at least last time we were there about two years ago) is to ignore the buoys and call or e-mail the Tin Can Bay Coast Guard to get waypoints for the current channel.

How much easier would that be if Tin Can Bay operated an AIS base station with virtual ATONs broadcast to mariners? Every time changed channel conditions are measured the broadcast can be updated, almost in real time. Even if you are still advised to call in advance to get conditions, etc. it greatly simplifies the call by not having to read/write/transfer waypoints. I can think of any number of other bars and similar shifting bottom locations where virtual ATONs would be far superior to buoys.

Lots of places where I like to see buoys too, but I think there is a use case for virtual ATONs - and given the cost of maintenance of physical ones I suspect we will see a transition to virtual marks in many places at some point.
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Old 30-03-2021, 11:56   #174
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

For the example with USCG cutter using sidescan sonar every time entering and exiting an entrance with shifting sands: they do not need to update maps and get those out to the boats! All they need to do is update the virtual markers on AIS which can be done in seconds.
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Old 30-03-2021, 13:43   #175
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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For the example with USCG cutter using sidescan sonar every time entering and exiting an entrance with shifting sands:

they do not need to update maps and get those out to the boats! All they need to do is update the virtual markers on AIS which can be done in seconds.
True but why limit it to someone remembering to do an update and then only updating a handful of points quite likely missing some critical areas. You're thinking old school when each marker placed was a significant amount of effort, so you kept the number of points limited to what was absolutely critical.

Once outfitted with sidescan and integrated into an online system, it's almost zero effort and no need to remember. Every time you go out, the maps update themselves and show you the entire bottom, so if a shoal is filling in halfway between two markers, you see exactly where it is.

Not saying the project wouldn't have some challenges but it's entirely feasible technologically. The biggest issue I can see is knitting together new data with old where there are major changes such as after a storm but it wouldn't be hard to set up thresholds that would allow automatic warning markers where old data is questionable.
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Old 30-03-2021, 14:40   #176
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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I could see guys in pangas with a cellphone in a plastic bag running about complex reefs using the system very quickly.
ROTFLMAO.
How much of PNGs reef strewn coastline do you think has cell coverage?
(or is likely to get it in the next 10 years).

Heck, much of Queensland's coast doesn't have cell coverage.


>They have all these buoy tenders and trained crews
They do? Not aroound here.
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Old 30-03-2021, 15:01   #177
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

In this debate the thing that gets forgotten is that there something reassuring to see buoys to follow that you can physical steer to over looking at a dot on a screen sometimes.



Well at least to me.
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Old 30-03-2021, 15:27   #178
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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ROTFLMAO.
How much of PNGs reef strewn coastline do you think has cell coverage?
(or is likely to get it in the next 10 years).

Heck, much of Queensland's coast doesn't have cell coverage.


>They have all these buoy tenders and trained crews
They do? Not aroound here.
You are mixing multiple unrelated things...
- Cell coverage isn't needed as long as they get in coverage occasionally. It can work offline. While there may be some truly off the grid locations, it's amazing how many places you show up and the locals are busying playing with their cell phone.
- Buoy tenders and trained crews was referring to 1st world locations where there are multimillion dollar annual budgets tied to tending navigational aids.
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Old 30-03-2021, 15:34   #179
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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In this debate the thing that gets forgotten is that there something reassuring to see buoys to follow that you can physical steer to over looking at a dot on a screen sometimes.
Been there done that a couple decades back.

Very reassuring as the nice buoy led me right into the sunk ice shanty just outside the channel and messed up a $750 prop. Of course, the nice folks on shore watching were happy to point out that the buoy is on the wrong side of the channel as I'm backing off the ice shanty.

I'll take accurate over reassuring.
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Old 30-03-2021, 15:50   #180
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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Been there done that a couple decades back.

Very reassuring as the nice buoy led me right into the sunk ice shanty just outside the channel and messed up a $750 prop. Of course, the nice folks on shore watching were happy to point out that the buoy is on the wrong side of the channel as I'm backing off the ice shanty.

I'll take accurate over reassuring.
Well the accurate told me I was 300 feet ashore in South Carolina 2 years ago.
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