"Best" chart/navigation software

[Sabado]

Originally Posted by nohal

I know how high the bar is, what I did not know until now is that there is even magic included in these packages and that they are modifying the systems they run on to an extent that their owner can't do even basic operations on them anymore.

I had never ending issues with o-charts because of copy protection issues that made it look like the charts had been deleted. I paid for charts from chartworld and have had zero issues.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by nohal

I know how high the bar is, what I did not know until now is that there is even magic included in these packages and that they are modifying the systems they run on to an extent that their owner can't do even basic operations on them anymore.

I've already fessed-up to it being operator error. But what I don't think the OCPN faithful realize just how cumbersome file management is from start to finish. It really reminds me of the old DOS days. So while you can point to the operator as the source of the error, all I can tell you is it NEVER happens with Coastal Explorer, Time Zero (I have had some issues with disappearing charts on Navionics but they are fairly easy to reinstate).

My hunch is OCPN will never get more user friendly. The folks who love it just want to tinker with more features not make the base software more approachable. That's fine, just don't come on forums like this and talk about how easy it is to use. For many, many people it is not. Dismissing them as an abhoration is a mistake. I'd say fully half the people who attempt OCPN give up frustration. To the OP's point, they may eventually figure it out because its free and they dont want to spend $400-$500 on a commercial product, but that doesn't make it easy to use.

So fine....you can defend OCPN by saying some online creton blamed OCPN when he somehow deleted charts. And you are right - if chart files are missing from CE/TZ it cannot call them up. But what you cannot ignore is that it's easy to do on OCPN and damn hard to do on CE/TZ. Clearly, another example of OCPN developers targeting the features they want to tinker with, not the ones that make it a more user-friendly and accessible platform.

You guys shoot the messenger way too much.

[nohal]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

I've already fessed-up to it being operator error. But what I don't think the OCPN faithful realize just how cumbersome file management is from start to finish. It really reminds me of the old DOS days. So while you can point to the operator as the source of the error, all I can tell you is it NEVER happens with Coastal Explorer, Time Zero (I have had some issues with disappearing charts on Navionics but they are fairly easy to reinstate).

My hunch is OCPN will never get more user friendly. The folks who love it just want to tinker with more features not make the base software more approachable. That's fine, just don't come on forums like this and talk about how easy it is to use. For many, many people it is not. Dismissing them as an abhoration is a mistake. I'd say fully half the people who attempt OCPN give up frustration. To the OP's point, they may eventually figure it out because its free and they dont want to spend $400-$500 on a commercial product, but that doesn't make it easy to use.

So fine....you can defend OCPN by saying some online creton blamed OCPN when he somehow deleted charts. And you are right - if chart files are missing from CE/TZ it cannot call them up. But what you cannot ignore is that it's easy to do on OCPN and damn hard to do on CE/TZ. Clearly, another example of OCPN developers targeting the features they want to tinker with, not the ones that make it a more user-friendly and accessible platform.

You guys shoot the messenger way too much.

OK, so basically your main complaint is that OpenCPN gives you the choice to use any charts you want, does not lock you to a single source tightly integrated into the application and you don't want it. Fair enough, this is something we will never fix.

[Sabado]

Originally Posted by nohal

OK, so basically your main complaint is that OpenCPN gives you the choice to use any charts you want, does not lock you to a single source tightly integrated into the application and you don't want it. Fair enough, this is something we will never fix.

You're a tool and one of the reasons OpenCPN will never be a high end mainstream navigation app. Good job.

[nohal]

Fool, I am a fool, not tool.

[Sabado]

Originally Posted by nohal

Fool, I am a fool, not tool.

I'm sure the contributors to OpenCPN love your humor.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by nohal

OK, so basically your main complaint is that OpenCPN gives you the choice to use any charts you want, does not lock you to a single source tightly integrated into the application and you don't want it. Fair enough, this is something we will never fix.

If you are speaking for the OCPN community, I certainly understand you will never fix the stuff that drives many users away. You frame problems in reductionist terms to support your long held approach and ignore customer unless they kneel and kiss the hem of your skirt.

If you cannot figure out a way to make file management easier without trashing the features, you're not very good at what you do.

All I can tell you is why I consider OCPN a niche product for nerdy sailors. If you guys are happy to be in the exclusive company of fellow propeller heads, mission accomplished. Just don't extoll OCPN as some sort of easy to use software that's competitive with commercial products. It's not.

Shoot the messenger (again).

[wholybee]

To maybe be constructive here...

Back on post 21, nohal ask for suggestions and examples to make OCPN more user friendly. I then suggested "wizards" for new users to walk them through some of the more complex tasks. Specifically setting up connections and setting up charts.

Some of what this could do would be to decide for the user exactly where charts go. The location would be different for different operating systems, on windows in Program Data, and in Library on a Mac. Somewhere an average user would never see them and couldn't mess them up. The wizard could also have its own chart downloader. Perhaps for NOAA charts you just select the area you are interested in, and outside the US it could integrate with O-Charts and handle setting up the plugin and downloading charts.

Nothing on the current charts tab would need to change and it could remain for more advanced users. In fact, the whole Wizard system could be a separate app that ran before the first time OCPN runs, or could be run again for changes.

[Sabado]

Originally Posted by wholybee

To maybe be constructive here...

Back on post 21, nohal ask for suggestions and examples to make OCPN more user friendly. I then suggested "wizards" for new users to walk them through some of the more complex tasks. Specifically setting up connections and setting up charts.

Some of what this could do would be to decide for the user exactly where charts go. The location would be different for different operating systems, on windows in Program Data, and in Library on a Mac. Somewhere an average user would never see them and couldn't mess them up. The wizard could also have its own chart downloader. Perhaps for NOAA charts you just select the area you are interested in, and outside the US it could integrate with O-Charts and handle setting up the plugin and downloading charts.

Nothing on the current charts tab would need to change and it could remain for more advanced users. In fact, the whole Wizard system could be a separate app that ran before the first time OCPN runs, or could be run again for changes.

It sounds like you are also an attempted user of o-charts. I encourage you to contact chartworld.com and let them know the issues you're having and try their offering. It will help with the chart frustration.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by wholybee

To maybe be constructive here...

Back on post 21, nohal ask for suggestions and examples to make OCPN more user friendly. I then suggested "wizards" for new users to walk them through some of the more complex tasks. Specifically setting up connections and setting up charts.

Some of what this could do would be to decide for the user exactly where charts go. The location would be different for different operating systems, on windows in Program Data, and in Library on a Mac. Somewhere an average user would never see them and couldn't mess them up. The wizard could also have its own chart downloader. Perhaps for NOAA charts you just select the area you are interested in, and outside the US it could integrate with O-Charts and handle setting up the plugin and downloading charts.

Nothing on the current charts tab would need to change and it could remain for more advanced users. In fact, the whole Wizard system could be a separate app that ran before the first time OCPN runs, or could be run again for changes.

I spent some time trying to describe my challenges, and agree with your suggestion for wizards. Nohal seems very defensive of OCPN and has an excuse that any suggestion isn't needed. To his thinking, the product is perfect, and any defect is related to operator error.

To him and the OCPN team, I suggest reading "The Innovators Dilemma." I

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by Sabado

It sounds like you are also an attempted user of o-charts. I encourage you to contact chartworld.com and let them know the issues you're having and try their offering. It will help with the chart frustration.

No, I have no problem with OCPN, O-charts, or chartworld. But, I have spent most of my professional career supporting the average PC user, so I see where they get tripped up and what works.

[donradcliffe]

Having used OpenCPN since its inception, I find it an extremely useful tool. I have it loaded with free charts from NOAA, COE, and NZ, plus worldwide coverage from CM93. It has one of the better UI's for AIS, and it is so easy to set or change a route.

However, there are certain setup requirements where I can understand the frustration of new users. Rather than a detailed user manual, I would think new users would benefit from a series of YouTube videos on the main sticking points, like loading charts and hooking up GPS and AIS. I am comfortable with file management on Windows machines, but I need help with the android version.

My full time cruising platform was a netbook on W98, which I found a stable platform and still occasionally use. I have morphed over to Navionics on an android cellphone for backup on deliveries. Navionics is not as easy to use or get information from, but I like the daylight screen and small size and power consumption. However, the change in Navionics pricing has me now looking to switch to another phone-based navigation system.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Some of what this could do would be to decide for the user exactly where charts go. The location would be different for different operating systems, on windows in Program Data, and in Library on a Mac. Somewhere an average user would never see them and couldn't mess them up.

Somewhat agree, and particularly agree for mobile devices. This is the downside of letting people "get under the hood"; they can break things just as easily as fix them. Having two people (or one person and an app) both able to directly manipulate chart storage will ultimately always lead to inconsistencies.

This particularly impacts people who think they know what they're doing (i.e. the "I'm a doctor -> therefore I'm smart -> therefore I know what I'm doing" issue). Protecting critical settings by hiding them from most users (but documenting them for advanced users) is important for a mass-market app.

The reason I only "somewhat agree" is that chart collections may be quite large, and on a laptop someone might have a preferred storage location. Users may also have all sorts of random files they want to add to the mix (CM93? satellite images?).

Making it easier to curate such collections from within the app would help, as might having the app maintain an internal manifest and alert the user when things go missing (or are added?). The more the app can suggest / enforce an organizational structure the better it would be, otherwise you get a mess when the user tries to decide between organizing e.g. US charts by state, by USCG district, by type (ENC vs RNC), etc.

[JPK]

Earlier in the thread I suggested that one of the biggest deficiencies in OpenCPN was the lack of updated documentation for things as simple as a list of GPS receivers that work with the current version of a given OS. I was advised by Nohal that this is not the responsibility of the developers, and it is the user community that updates documentation. The lack of thorough and up-to-date documentation is honestly the biggest achilles heel of OpenCPN. If documentation for something as simple a "what GPS receiver should I use" can't be kept up to date, is it realistic to expect support for advanced features like hiding/seeing chart locations? IMO, the more "advanced" OpenCPN gets with all sorts of creative and unique features, the more critical documentation becomes, and without this documentation the app just becomes more and more unapproachable by beginners.

[barcoMeCasa]

Originally Posted by JPK

If documentation for something as simple a "what GPS receiver should I use" can't be kept up to date, is it realistic to expect support for advanced features like hiding/seeing chart locations?

That's down to the computer you are using, not the software.