Aground at Elbow Cay

[Seymore]

Originally Posted by Jammer

There is much that I do not know but I did not realize until reading this thread that there are conditions where a well-found, modern sailboat cannot make progress to windward. I would find it insightful if someone could say a few words on how much this is due to the design of this particular boat and how much of it is weather.

The concept that Westsail 32s cannot sail to weather, as it is presented indiscriminately in this thread, is pure urban legend. Westsail 32s can sail to weather exactly as well as similar ocean going boats.
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[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Seymore

The concept that Westsail 32s cannot sail to weather, as it is presented indiscriminately in this thread, is pure urban legend. Westsail 32s can sail to weather exactly as well as similar ocean going boats.
.

Seems that the evidence shows that THIS W-32 could not make headway enough to get away from the lee shore in question... an observation, not a legend.

Make from this whatever you want, but from the story, if they had been able to get a few more miles upwind things could have turned out differently.

Jim

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Seymore

The concept that Westsail 32s cannot sail to weather, as it is presented indiscriminately in this thread, is pure urban legend. Westsail 32s can sail to weather exactly as well as similar ocean going boats.
.

There are times that most boats cannot go to weather, I could not in a 45’ Sportfisherman once.
However having said that some sailboats go to weather better than others, Westsails and my Boat, an Island Packet are very similar in their reputations of being tough boats, that don’t go to weather well.
No Boat is perfect, it’s not disrespect to point out a boats weaknesses.
However, they may have been in a situation that no cruising Boat could have gotten out of, there are some un winnable situations, we don’t know.

[jtsailjt]

Whether Westsails go to weather adequately or not, I don't buy it as a primary cause of this accident. Of course EVERY boat has a point where it won't go to weather, but until the very end of this boats voyage, they wouldn't even need to go to weather in order to get to deep water. Take a look at a chart. The area where this happened is at about the most easterly point of the Abacos so even reaching, a sailboat that was just a few miles offshore would stay offshore. Once they were in among the coral heads, then it was too late, but up until that point they could have reached to deep water. This boats inability to sail to weather very well might have been an issue at the very end, but I feel like there are many other issues that had a LOT more to do with why this sailboat ended up on the beach than that.

[a64pilot]

I have participated in a few aviation accident investigations.
All accidents are a chain, one link missing and you got away with it, no accident. Actually accidents are often so rare cause you have to have a series of failed events to make one happen, usually.
We will likely never know in this case, unless there is an investigation, even if we were allowed to interview the crew, it’s likely that we wouldn’t learn the cause, people that are in the accident are often very poor witnesses believe it or not.

Another way to look at it is a less tough boat, and they may not have survived, the old Westsail being so tough that she was not torn apart, where most would have been.
We can only speculate

[JC Reefer]

The surfing off Elbow Cay can be nice when the wind is blowing from the east.

[rognvald]

"This boats inability to sail to weather very well might have been an issue at the very end, but I feel like there are many other issues that had a LOT more to do with why this sailboat ended up on the beach than that." JTsailjt


JT,
For me, this summarizes the entire incident perfectly. Good luck and safe sailing . . . Rognvald

[GordMay]

... some sailboats go to weather better than others, Westsails and my Boat, an Island Packet are very similar in their reputations of being tough boats, that don’t go to weather well.
No Boat is perfect, it’s not disrespect to point out a boats weaknesses ...

... Westsail 32s can sail to weather exactly as well as similar ocean going boats ...

Exactly.
None of those (similar to w32's) sail especially well to weather.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by rognvald

"This boats inability to sail to weather very well might have been an issue at the very end, but I feel like there are many other issues that had a LOT more to do with why this sailboat ended up on the beach than that." JTsailjt


JT,
For me, this summarizes the entire incident perfectly. Good luck and safe sailing . . . Rognvald

Probably so. There usually are an escalating combo of reasons for any accident.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by rognvald

"This boats inability to sail to weather very well might have been an issue at the very end, but I feel like there are many other issues that had a LOT more to do with why this sailboat ended up on the beach than that." JTsailjt


JT,
For me, this summarizes the entire incident perfectly. Good luck and safe sailing . . . Rognvald

I am reminded of something I read years ago, supposedly from a training manual of some sort used by the Royal Navy back in the 1600s:

"The only way to be sure of getting off a lee shore in stiff weather is to not be there in the first place." Or something very like that...

This wisdom is reflected in the Elbow Cay event.

Jim

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by rognvald

"This boats inability to sail to weather very well might have been an issue at the very end, but I feel like there are many other issues that had a LOT more to do with why this sailboat ended up on the beach than that." JTsailjt


JT,
For me, this summarizes the entire incident perfectly. Good luck and safe sailing . . . Rognvald

Also agree. Where the boat grounded the reef is about 1/2 mile off the beach, the coast runs more or less N/S. Until the boat crossed the shelf into the coastal shallows a beam reach would have taken them to safety.

There must be some other issues that resulted in the boat's location less than a mile from the beach when it was then not possible to sail off the lee shore.

I would like to make one point. I sincerely believe most of the participants on this thread are interested in learning from this accident and not here to pass judgement on the captain and crew. There but for the grace and occasional luck go I.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Also agree. Where the boat grounded the reef is about 1/2 mile off the beach, the coast runs more or less N/S. Until the boat crossed the shelf into the coastal shallows a beam reach would have taken them to safety.

There must be some other issues that resulted in the boat's location less than a mile from the beach when it was then not possible to sail off the lee shore.

I would like to make one point. I sincerely believe most of the participants on this thread are interested in learning from this accident and not here to pass judgement on the captain and crew. There but for the grace and occasional luck go I.

I assume you guys are talking about a beam reach on a port tack heading east towards open water, right? I thought the reports were several days of strong, sustained northerlies immediately preceding the grounding?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Exile

I assume you guys are talking about a beam reach on a port tack heading east towards open water, right? I thought the reports were several days of strong, sustained northerlies immediately preceding the grounding?

If the winds were still northerly then that would not have been a lee shore and they could have sailed away from the coast on an easy broad reach on the port tack.

I have been through a strong front in the Bahamas before when several days of strong northerlies were followed by even stronger NE to E winds after the center of the front passed which would have made that a lee shore. Don't know the details of the winds the exact time of the grounding so on this point it would be pure speculation.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Take a look at a chart. The area where this happened is at about the most easterly point of the Abacos so even reaching, a sailboat that was just a few miles offshore would stay offshore. Once they were in among the coral heads, then it was too late, but up until that point they could have reached to deep water.

It sounds to me like you are assuming they had prevailing E-SE winds which are more typical for the area when there is not a northerly moving through.

Originally Posted by skipmac

Also agree. Where the boat grounded the reef is about 1/2 mile off the beach, the coast runs more or less N/S. Until the boat crossed the shelf into the coastal shallows a beam reach would have taken them to safety.

Only if the wind was blowing from the E-SE, i.e. the prevailing pattern consistent with calmer weather. Not what has been described thus far, especially by the time they got close to Elbow Cay. It was described as a "rage," i.e. more consistent with a strong northerly.

Originally Posted by skipmac

If the winds were still northerly then that would not have been a lee shore and they could have sailed away from the coast on an easy broad reach on the port tack.

I have been through a strong front in the Bahamas before when several days of strong northerlies were followed by even stronger NE to E winds after the center of the front passed which would have made that a lee shore. Don't know the details of the winds the exact time of the grounding so on this point it would be pure speculation.

Not really. From what's been described thus far it appears they had been fighting persistent northerlies for some time. Not sure when their engine quit, but strong winds anywhere from a NW to NE direction would obviously have been a no-go zone if trying to head north, and given their boat's sailing characteristics they may have been pinching to avoid the reefs even in strong easterlies. Either way I'm confused why, in such conditions, you can say with certainty that "a sailboat that was just a few miles offshore would stay offshore," or "until the boat crossed the shelf into the coastal shallows a beam reach would have taken them to safety."

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Exile

It sounds to me like you are assuming they had prevailing E-SE winds which are more typical for the area when there is not a northerly moving through.



Only if the wind was blowing from the E-SE, i.e. the prevailing pattern consistent with calmer weather. Not what has been described thus far, especially by the time they got close to Elbow Cay. It was described as a "rage," i.e. more consistent with a strong northerly.



Not really. From what's been described thus far it appears they had been fighting persistent northerlies for some time. Not sure when their engine quit, but strong winds anywhere from a NW to NE direction would obviously have been a no-go zone if trying to head north, and given their boat's sailing characteristics they may have been pinching to avoid the reefs even in strong easterlies. Either way I'm confused why, in such conditions, you can say with certainty that "a sailboat that was just a few miles offshore would stay offshore," or "until the boat crossed the shelf into the coastal shallows a beam reach would have taken them to safety."

Not sure if the information is correct or not, but throughout this thread it has been said that the boat was caught on a lee shore and unable to claw off against the strong winds and waves.

Look at a chart of the island. At the point the boat was reported on the beach the coast line runs almost exactly N/S. If the winds were from the north then that would not be a lee shore and the boat could have easily sailed to safety on a broad reach on the port tack. No need to sail into the wind, any course from 90 to 160 degrees off a north wind would take them to safety.

Another point, where the boat is shown to have hit the beach the wind would have to have had a mostly easterly component to put them there.

If they were trying to make a course towards the north and couldn't stay off the coast a simple tack or gybe to the other tack would have put them on a safe course.