Upsizing anchor - suggestions?

[CarlF]

Folks, this boat has no windlass! Have you ever tried to haul 100ft of chain by hand and feed it down into a chain locker?

I think his current rig is a reasonable compromise for his situation. While the SV Panope tests didn’t rank the Rocna very high, that was largely due to poor performant in sandy/mud. A bottom type that is relatively rare in the SE US and non-existent in the Bahamas.

If he got a windlass, then upgrading both anchor and chain would be good - but that’s an expensive upgrade.

To reduce the risk of dragging:

1. Look for sand bottoms or Active Captain reports of excellent holding.

2. Put out 7:1 scope calculated including the bow roller and at high tide. Avoid very popular anchorages as there isn’t usually room to swing with 7:1 when everyone else is much less.

3. Set the anchor with at least a full minute of strong reverse engine (2000-2500 rpm depending on how powerful the prop is in reverse)

4. In warm waters always dive on the anchor and reset if it’s not upright and well buried.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Folks, this boat has no windlass! Have you ever tried to haul 100ft of chain by hand and feed it down into a chain locker?

.

I do it every time!

but a windlass would be nice, although a little slow for my tastes.

[CarlF]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I do it every time!

but a windlass would be nice, although a little slow for my tastes.

Anyone old school enough to sail a ‘62 Columbia 29 gets to do anything they want

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Anyone old school enough to sail a ‘62 Columbia 29 gets to do anything they want

Uhhh are you calling me OLD?

[Mike Banks]

That is too light an anchor for my area of operations. I would have a mimimum of 20 kilograms and twice as mu chain, and angel or kellet about fifteen pounds in weight and my nylon going to a few more feet of chain before the kellet. Coral makes short work of nylon. It is best kept off the bottom.

[Mr B]

The shorter the scope, The more chance it will pull out of the sea bed when you get waves over one metre,

[Mike Banks]

You could use an old shoe as an anchor if you put out enough chain--but I think your anchor is too light and you do not have enough chain. Manson Supreme is my pick. NEVER had any problems, but not cheap, and I always use an oversized anchor and plenty of chain AND a kellet. I ALWAYS use a kellet in any stormy conditions. ESPECIALLY with an all chain rode--it will stop your bow cleat ripping out of your deck.
.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Very deep water changes the game. An equal length / weight of chain deployed is much harder to pull tight in 100 feet of water than in 15 feet of water. In deep water, catenary provides a significant benefit. In shallower water, not so much (hence the need for big anchors to resist the higher angle of pull, good snubbers to add stretch, etc.). Dockhead is also running moderately heavy chain relative to the size of his boat. I think he's using 1/2", while I would probably go for high strength 3/8" on that size boat.

Yes, correct. On this boat 100 pound Spade, 100 meters (330 feet) of 12mm (1/2") chain weighing 330kg. All that chain out in 30m or deeper water is really formidable; you don't need much scope. Anchored in such deep water with all the chain out I don't need a snubber even in 40+ knots of wind.

We chose the same chain, 100m of 12mm G40, for my friend's Discovery 67 with 1.5x the displacement (but the anchor is a 186 pound Spade).

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike Banks

You could use an old shoe as an anchor if you put out enough chain--but I think your anchor is too light and you do not have enough chain. Manson Supreme is my pick. NEVER had any problems, but not cheap, and I always use an oversized anchor and plenty of chain AND a kellet. I ALWAYS use a kellet in any stormy conditions. ESPECIALLY with an all chain rode--it will stop your bow cleat ripping out of your deck.
.

The OP's anchor is neither the biggest, nor the best, but it's big enough and good enough. A bigger and/or better anchor would be nice to have, as would be more chain But none of this will change the game, and he's limited by budget and by the fact that he hauls by hand (no windlass). He should concentrate on technique, not gear. His gear is good enough.

[noelex 77]

The important question is what sized anchor can the boat (and your crew) comfortably manage?

Even a 15kg anchor will give about 50% higher holding capacity that your current 10kg model. A very significant increase in holding capacity for only an extra 5kg, but you will need to assess the largest anchor that can be comfortably managed for your vessel yourself.

The amount of chain is dependent on your typical anchoring depth and bottom composition. All chain is ideal, but this is not always practical in smaller yachts. Chain is very heavy and you will probably need to accept the poor chafe resistance of rope. Try to ensure that under most conditions the rode in contact with the bottom is chain.

[OldManMirage]

Soupa, I think your setup is fine. I had the same Rocna with my Cape Dory 28, and it worked great. Knowing your area a little bit I think what might have happened was with all the shifting around the anchor came across a patch of hard sand, the kind that gets scoured off by the current, and just didn't have enough time or scope to get dug back in before your alarm went off.

I'm sure with practice and experience you'll know and do better. But I would not change out what you have, it should be more than enough. I would probably have gone with more scope. Make sure your adding in the height of your bow from the water to your depth, probably an extra 5 feet for the C30. I'm old school and I try to get 7 times when I have the room, and enough anchor line. It doesn't hurt a thing and it will make motion at anchor easier.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

I'm old. I could probably lift a 15kg anchor plus 20' of chain... after already bringing in the other 50' or so of chain.

Here's something closer to what I should have written the first time:

"I'm old. I could probably lift a 15kg anchor plus 20' of chain... after already bringing in the other 50' or so of chain... if I had to. I wouldn't want to have to do that regularly with no windlass."

And then...

Assuming anchoring will be a common practice for you, not just an occasional occurence.... and realizing extra expense might not be welcome... I think I'd install a windlass and then deal with whatever improvements to anchor and chain might be useful.

After all:

Originally Posted by soopad00pa

I agree wholeheartedly with better technique and anchorage selection, but as an American I believe in buying a quick fix!

-Chris

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Even a 15kg anchor will give about 50% higher holding capacity that your current 10kg model. A very significant increase in holding capacity for only an extra 5kg, but you will need to assess the largest anchor that can be comfortably managed for your vessel yourself.

Is this really the case? The fluke areas for 15 and 10Kg models are 1030cm^2 and 795cm^2 respectively. The 15 is only 30% larger than the 10.

[captstu]

I sized my ground tackle last when I was extended cruising on a 43' Catamaran - bigger tackle but the same idea.

My primary anchor was a 50 kg Bruce with 200' of 5/16 HT chain, sized because it was the biggest y windless could carry and I was able to recover by hand in the event of a windless failure using my spinnaker halyard as a backup.

My sizing guess said that wasn't enough to protect the boat in a storm it would otherwise survive.

After some thought I purchased a Fortress FX-37, about 18 pounds of aluminum.

When needed, I shackled the FX-37 to the trip point (furthest point from the chain attachment) on the Bruce - the two lined up like a train.

With a 50 kg primary, I seldom needed the FX-37 secondary anchor. When challenging anchoring conditions were expected, it took about a minute to attach the FX-37. The attachment chain was size so with the Bruce in the roller, the Fortress dangeled just at the waterline with not to much chain so it would not swing into the boat and damage the bow.

Once the Fortress was deployed, I deployed the Bruce using the windless until I "felt" the Fortress hit ground. I began backing slowly while deploying the selected scope for the ground tackle - I aimed at between 3 and 5 to one depending on the swing conditions of other boats in a crowded anchorage.

Then I attached a pre-spliced bridle that was spliced to two hard points provided by the builder. The bridle stayed attached at all times and was 7/8" twisted nylon.

When fully deployed, the Fortress set first and the Bruce acted as a 50 kg weight to keep the Fortress shank flat to the ground. Then the Bruce set straight while dragging the Fortress down into the mud or soft sand, if present. Since the Bruce will typically nut fully set in rock, the Fortress continued to set further until the full weight of the anchoring was carried by the Fortress with the Bruce acting as a signifiant weight to make the catenary effect of the chain partially irrevelent.

The chain continue to lift and fall smoothing the load if the anchorage was not perfectly flat.

I was only confronted with one "survival" hurricane to fully test this design. Prior to the hurricane, I deployed in a sheltered area with a mud bottom with a full load of other boats also hoping to survive,

I deployed exactly as above but given the severity of the warning, I deployed a second "storm bridle", somewhat longer than the primary and attached it to the mid-ship cleats with proper chafing gear.

Then I left for the storm, scared to stay on board as I usually do.

The storm track went over the anchorage so a "veer" affected all boats. My catamaran ran down the bridle and fetched up against the anchor, apparently quite suddenly, at the opposite heading. Both the primary bridle and the storm bridle broke - not at chafe points but in the middle of their respective strands - a total of four strands of nylon.

That placed a sudden, full, load against the windless - that immediately snapped out of its mount with the chain still wrapped around the wildcat.

The safety mount at the bitter end of the chain - double wraps of 3/8" nylon for a total of 4 strands, held but the hard point for the bitter end provided by the builder pulled from its mount in the reinforced bottom of the chain locker.

The bitter end hard point and windless jammed solid into the hawse pipe that held - and held the boat.

When I dove the anchor rig because I could not recover it easily, I found the Bruce on its back on the surface a few feet downwind from the anchor point. The shank of the Fortress had twisted nearly 180 degrees below the surface - only the chain disappearing into the sand was visible. With an understanding of the recovery problem, I recovered as much chain as possible at low tide and lowed the lift to pull the Fortress out of the sand, maybe 6' below.

I had to recover using the spinnaker windess because even after repairing the windless mount, the chain no longer fit the windless.

The chain had stretched under load and was now worthless - but it held the boat without damage.

My boat was one of only a few few that were not on the beach and destroyed.

Lesson:

1. I sized the chain so the ultimate strength was sufficient to hold the boat if it would survive otherwise. The safe working load was smaller, but this allowed 5/16" chain where the factory recommended 3/8" or larger. I bought all chain for easier recovery and chafe resistant.

2. The windless was sized to recover lots of chain and 50 kg of anchor.

3. Once the Bruce was safely in its bow roller/tipper, the Fortress was out of the water and I could safely motor out of the anchorage with the Fortress dragging. It didn't look good for the minute or so it took me to motor clear but was perfectly safe.

3. I could easily and quickly recover the 6' of tether chain and lightweight aluminum anchor by going forward when motoring out of traffic very slowly.

I used this setup whenever anchoring overnight in less than perfect conditions. The Fortress and attached tether chain were stored forward and hookup took less than a minute.

There is no perfect anchor - some are designed to work best in rock, some work best in mud. My setup used two anchoring technologies and if 5 years of cruising with this boat - plus many more on other boats - the setup never ever slipped or required resetting.

Once I felt the Fortress hit bottom and laid out the Bruce and rode, I didn't bother backing or testing - the setup worked perfectly on several boats with different size anchors appropriate for the boat size.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by soopad00pa

Old Catalina 30 with a 10kg rocna + 20ft chain + a couple hundred feet of nylon. On east coast of FL but expect to see action in the Bahamas and at least up to the Chesapeake, hopefully farther north.

The rocna has dragged on me once (sandy mud, 6:1) out of a handful of times out, but i am a noob so likely a technique/spot selection error. Still, I'm looking for better sleep and so plan to go up a size and add more chain.

Watched a buncha Steve's vids and am inclined toward the vulcan, but if someone has a vintage 10lb CQR they're looking to get rid of...

In all seriousness, readily available to me are 15k rocna, 12k,15k vulcan, and various deltas and claws. Worth goin for the 15k vulcan? Other ideas?

There is more to peaceful anchoring than just the size of the anchor. On my previous boat (San Juan 28) I used a Danforth 13S (14 lbs.) anchor, 26' of 5/16" chain, and about 172' of line (198' total) and it worked fine for deep Northwest waters although I was once forced to anchor in 98' depth water in British Columbia...but it was a calm night.

My general approach when concerned for the nightly forecasted weather was to put out pretty much all the line and then retrieving the excess to a 7:1 rode once I was satisfied the anchor had set well. The angle achieved by the excess line never failed to give me a good nightly rest.

No anchor is ideal for every type of bottom material and a drag will occur when not set properly. When that happens just pick another spot and try again.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH