Rocna Anchor Failure

[Mr B]

Crap steel is out there,
I was going to make a vertical ladder out of 75 x 10 mm steel, 3 inch by 3/8 inch,
I picked up a length of it off the floor, It stood up vertically and it stayed there,
3 feet high and it just flowed down straight to the floor, It was like Play dough, or Plasticine,
I point blank refused to make any thing out of it or use it, Much to my bosses annoyance, He had cheap steel no one would use,

But if crap steel like this came up in the production of an anchor, They would know it instantly,
The shaft would bend when they picked it up, The end would snap off it as they punched the hole in it,
It wouldnt have made it out the door, It would have been put in the scrap bin,

As the OP had already used it to anchor, It would not have come back up if it was said scrap steel,
It would have snapped off while it was being used to anchor,

Some one has a nice new free anchor is my Guess,

[double u]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

... I agree with others who smell a troll here.

you bad toxic boy...
(I wonder how it would go if Rocna sued the OP for slander...)

[teneicm]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Why would it be on deck during an ocean passage, anyway? At sea, if something is not needed on deck, it should not be on deck.

So just curious, where do you put your anchor when on passage? Ours is lashed down to a deck cleat to insure it doesn't go anywhere, but it's still "on deck" and probably more secure pulled tight into the bow roller than anywhere else.

And do you do this anytime you go offshore? Aruba to Curacao is essentially a daysail, would you put it away for that type of passage? Not trying to pick nits or be difficult, just honestly wondering if this is something that other folks do.

[chris in SG]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Why would it be on deck during an ocean passage, anyway? At sea, if something is not needed on deck, it should not be on deck. But that is beside the point. It could NOT have worn through undetected with any normal inspection/maintenance regimen. It could NOT have broke in any sort of normal conditions even if it was made of recycled tinfoil. It could not have been used for three years if it was that weak. It could not have been stolen without its absence noticed. How could you not notice that suddenly you have no anchor? Could a second shackle have come unscrewed? Doubtful. Anyone with 5k miles under his keel would by now have learned to mouse his shackles, or use locktite blue, or peen the end threads to prevent it from backing off without applying a fair amount of torque. I agree with others who smell a troll here.

Not being so familiar with internet slang, I googled "a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses "

There may be a troll here, but it isn't the OP..

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by chris in SG

I have always felt uncomfortable with an anchor bow shackle through the anchor slot. It feels wrong because the slot isn't rounded, so you only need a modest amount of mechanical sympathy to be very concerned about the point loading of the rounded shackle on the edges of the slot (see photo). Uncle Bob's method avoids this problem and possibly explains why anchor manufacturers don't bother rounding the slot - because perhaps it IS designed for a shackle pin only. Why is it that most of us don't use two shackles? My guess is that we instinctively feel that shackles are a potential weakness, so increasing the number of shackles will reduce the factor of safety.

Whatever system you use to connect the chain to the anchor shank, it is important that it cannot lock up or jam if the chain is pulled from an unusual angle. Test this on dry land.

If the wind shifts, the chain will rotate around before the anchor. It is not unusual for the chain to be pulled from an acute angle. Some shackles/ swivels/flip devices can temporarily jam in position. When the anchor has finished rotating this results in an unbalanced direction of pull that is not aligned centrally with the shank. This can cause very poor performance from the anchor. I suspect this mechanism is the reason for some unexpected dragging incidents from anchor designs that are normally very good at shuffling around and remaining engaged with the seabed during a wind shift.

The more complicated the anchor chain connection becomes, the more parts it has that can potentially jam in place. Multiple shackles can be fine, and even occasionally be less prone to jamming than a single shackle, but test the combination carefully. Removing the head of the projecting shackle pin can sometimes help, but the size and shape of the shackle or shackles in relation to anchor slot is the most important factor. Often a simple single bow shackle is best and it is not difficult to select something that will be stronger than the chain even with side loading.

The photo below shows a poorly set anchor responding to wind shift. Make sure the chain/anchor connection cannot jam when pulled and jerked from this type of angle. If it does lock in place, when it has finished rotating the unfair lead will result in very poor anchor holding ability:

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Why would it be on deck during an ocean passage, anyway? At sea, if something is not needed on deck, it should not be on deck.

I disagree with your logic. Scenario: bad weather on landfall with your anchor in a lazerette. Will you realistically be able to get a 25 or 30 kg anchor over a heaving deck, attached and properly through the bow roller? That's not something I would like to be faced with. Chain rode to windlass, chain stopper or other hold-back, and lashing that can be readily reached and cut.

Regardless, I reread the OP's initial post

Originally Posted by alc

I wanted to see if others have had the same issue with your Rocna 20 kg anchors failing. While transiting from Aruba to Curacao our anchor broke away from the shackle and chain. The shackle is completely intact on the chain but no anchor is left. I contacted Rocna and was told that without a picture of the actual anchor, which is sitting in 2000 feet of water, there was nothing they would do for me. I was surprised first that it failed after only 3 years and appeared to be in like new condition. I am just glad it happened while we were underway and not at anchor. I always believed Rocna was a good reliable product and shocked that it gave out to begin with but even more surprised that Rocna would not honor the warranty.

Without projecting any ill intent on the OP, the only thing he can say with assurance is that the anchor went missing. That the anchor failed structurally is an assumption, and not a well-informed one unless there is additional substantiated data we don't have.

I think the two most likely causes are a second shackle that failed or theft before departure that simply was not noticed. In neither case does Rocna bear any responsibility.

Engineering and management at Rocna likely came to the same conclusion.

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

It could not have been stolen without its absence noticed. How could you not notice that suddenly you have no anchor?

There is a lot going on at departure. The anchor hangs down a bit from the roller. There are other boaty bits including the headsail furler up there. If the owners was driving on departure, as they usually are, and crew/spouse is tidying up dock lines and fenders and anxious to get off the bow it is very possible that a missing anchor would be missed. I think the probability of that is much higher than a structural failure of the anchor shank.

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Could a second shackle have come unscrewed? Doubtful. Anyone with 5k miles under his keel would by now have learned to mouse his shackles, or use locktite blue, or peen the end threads to prevent it from backing off without applying a fair amount of torque. I agree with others who smell a troll here.

Apparently not in this case as the allen head pin (ugh) on the remaining shackle was backed partway out in one photo.

[Dennis.G]

My bet is that anchor was connected to shackle via a swivel and the swivel broke off of the shackle.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by teneicm

So just curious, where do you put your anchor when on passage? Ours is lashed down to a deck cleat to insure it doesn't go anywhere, but it's still "on deck" and probably more secure pulled tight into the bow roller than anywhere else.

And do you do this anytime you go offshore? Aruba to Curacao is essentially a daysail, would you put it away for that type of passage? Not trying to pick nits or be difficult, just honestly wondering if this is something that other folks do.

Most boats have room in the lazarette or chain locker for an anchor or two. Day sail? Nah. of course it stays on deck, and ready to let go any time it might be of any use. A short hop of a few hours across deep water doesn't really justify the effort to stow it, and handling heavy, pointy, clangy objects in a pitching and rolling boat, only to break it out again in a few hours, is risk to skin and bone without a lot of benefit. But for any sort of passage of consequence, I prefer minimum equipment topside and so if it is of no particular use, it should be stowed properly if possible. YMMV. Maybe that is being a bit anal but I have always believed anything topside should have a reason to be there, when at sea. Plenty of others will agree with me on that. I didn't use to be that way but was convinced by more experienced yachtsmen than myself to think this way.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I disagree with your logic. Scenario: bad weather on landfall with your anchor in a lazerette. Will you realistically be able to get a 25 or 30 kg anchor over a heaving deck, attached and properly through the bow roller? That's not something I would like to be faced with. Chain rode to windlass, chain stopper or other hold-back, and lashing that can be readily reached and cut.

Regardless, I reread the OP's initial post



Without projecting any ill intent on the OP, the only thing he can say with assurance is that the anchor went missing. That the anchor failed structurally is an assumption, and not a well-informed one unless there is additional substantiated data we don't have.

I think the two most likely causes are a second shackle that failed or theft before departure that simply was not noticed. In neither case does Rocna bear any responsibility.

Engineering and management at Rocna likely came to the same conclusion.



There is a lot going on at departure. The anchor hangs down a bit from the roller. There are other boaty bits including the headsail furler up there. If the owners was driving on departure, as they usually are, and crew/spouse is tidying up dock lines and fenders and anxious to get off the bow it is very possible that a missing anchor would be missed. I think the probability of that is much higher than a structural failure of the anchor shank.



Apparently not in this case as the allen head pin (ugh) on the remaining shackle was backed partway out in one photo.

If I stow an anchor in the lazarette and suddenly find myself in need of it, or not so suddenly but without fair weather for moving and rigging it, I lead chain back outboard of the shrouds to the anchor, and pitch it right over from the cockpit. Even in good weather when day sailing alone, I often move the anchor and the expected amount of rode back to the cockpit so I can easily drop it as I fall away from it or back away with the engine. It saves a lot of scurrying LOL! Then stoppers or snubbers or whatever after the anchor is set. Now I have a bigger boat and a windlass soon to be installed and my routine may change a bit, TBH.


Anchor should be on anyone's pre-departure checklist. I am a believer in checklists. Even so, sometimes I get into a "why didn't I think to check that?" situation. That keeps me believing in the necessity of a good checklist before departure and also before arrival. It is done on ships. It should be done on boats, too. In checking the anchor swivel, (if used). shackles, flukes or plow, shackle hole in the shank, snubbers and stoppers, windlass if so equipped, roller or chock or hawsepipe, chafing gear if needed, and the last few feet of chain for wear and distress, the complete absence of an anchor would probably have been noticed. If stowed for extended docking, it would have been broken out and attached, after inspection.



Good point about the allen head shackle pin. I like how streamlined they are, but there is no way to get a safety wire on it and you have to keep a completely different type of shackle key in your pocket along with what you usually use. The hypothetical second shackle could have been, or probably was, the same type. But there is always Loctite blue (don't use red... trust me on that.) or a punch or chisel and hammer. Just a little dot of the loctite and that pin isn't going anywhere until considerable force is applied to it directly.



I will admit that many of these truths are only truly evident after they have bitten the skipper in the hiney, but they can be found in many popular "learn to sail and do it right" books. In the real world, nobody instantly becomes Mr Expert Sailor in just a few years, but some things are naturally learned early on. The importance of a checklist is one of them.

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by teneicm

So just curious, where do you put your anchor when on passage? Ours is lashed down to a deck cleat to insure it doesn't go anywhere, but it's still "on deck" and probably more secure pulled tight into the bow roller than anywhere else.

And do you do this anytime you go offshore? Aruba to Curacao is essentially a daysail, would you put it away for that type of passage? Not trying to pick nits or be difficult, just honestly wondering if this is something that other folks do.

Anchor? I have 4.

The primary Mantus 55 lb, and the secondary 60 lb CQR stay on the bow on all passages including across the Pacific. They are always securely lashed down underway to prevent movement, and a chain hook with 3 strand line is attached, drawn tight, and secured to a cleat to remove any stresses on the windlass. (I also had 2 - 1/8" stainless plates made and installed on my bow to protect it from the pointy blades of the anchors.)

I also carry a FX-37 (lunch hook) in the aft lazarette, and a CQR 45 (spare) lb in the bilge.

Also...did anyone else notice there was no strap over either of the OP's anchor rollers to prevent the chain (or anchor) from jumping out?

[double u]

“Without projecting any ill intent on the OP, the only thing he can say with assurance is that the anchor went missing. That the anchor failed structurally is an assumption, and not a well-informed one unless there is additional substantiated data we don't have.“

& in this context I see “ill intent“ in the thread title

[hpeer]

FWIW - I assume the OP is a decent guy and is reporting the story exactly as he sees it. I have no reason to doubt his good intentions.

And I’m glad he posted this story. We will never know what exactly happened but it has fostered a good discussion.

So, OP - thanks!

[double u]

Originally Posted by hpeer

FWIW - I assume the OP is a decent guy and is reporting the story exactly as he sees it. I have no reason to doubt his good intentions!

shouldn't he have put a “?“ in the thread title then?
(I never got used to customers badmouthing a good product!)

[teneicm]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

Anchor? I have 4.

Right, this is exactly what we do. The question was aimed at the guy who didn't want anchors 'on deck'. I just couldn't see moving a 50 kg primary and a 30 kg spare off the rollers each time we go offshore. Not only is it a chore to lug them around, I wouldn't want something that big and heavy flying around (or even just rocking around) some other part of the boat.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by teneicm

Right, this is exactly what we do. The question was aimed at the guy who didn't want anchors 'on deck'. I just couldn't see moving a 50 kg primary and a 30 kg spare off the rollers each time we go offshore. Not only is it a chore to lug them around, I wouldn't want something that big and heavy flying around (or even just rocking around) some other part of the boat.

I have two anchors, A serious one for extreme bad weather (38 Kgs) and a smaller one for every day use, (15 kgs,)
To change from one to the other, I just change the Shackle over, and take the smaller one off,
The smaller one runs out thru the big one,
Both are securely locked down on the bow when Im travelling,
I doesnt look pretty, But it will save my boat in extreme bad weather,

Moving anchors around in bad weather and a boat thats leaping all over the place, Is a recipe for disaster,