How much chain..really?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by darylat8750

Welcome aboard! I too had to be dragged to this position. My boat was snatching the 200 foot chain to bar straight every wave one day and dragging the anchor a few feet with every slam. Finely got the bridle on to absorb the shock and we stopped dragging. Catenary just doesn't work when you really need it.

Well, it depends. This statement is the point of Peter Smith's much quoted old article, but we now know that it's an oversimplification, and that the reality is more complex. In short: there ARE some cases where catenary DOES work when you really need it. But you need a certain amount of chain of a certain weight, and deep enough water. I suggest reading this thread carefully:


https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...pe-235053.html

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Then you end up with a pile of rusty chain in the locker and rust all over your decks.
Ask me how I know.
Never again will I end for end.

You waited to long, I end to ended mine last year, you have to do it before it really starts to rust.

[Cheechako]

It's all about how you are sailing and where you are sailing. If cruising a lot, nothing easier than chain. It pulls up with a windlass easy peasy. Handling 100 feet of rope rode is not fun, and difficult. Pushing rope like a wet noodle through a hawse pipe is not fun either.
I dont understand how much chain you have is related to a water maker or AC...?

200 ft of chain is my normal go to for cruising. I did use one boat with 150 ft of chain in the Caribbean and it was fine. I always have a bunch of rope rode behind the chain "just in case"
Here in the PNW it would be nice to have 300 ft of chain as it can be deep in spots.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

It's all about how you are sailing and where you are sailing. If cruising a lot, nothing easier than chain. It pulls up with a windlass easy peasy. Handling 100 feet of rope rode is not fun, and difficult. Pushing rope like a wet noodle through a hawse pipe is not fun either.
I dont understand how much chain you have is related to a water maker or AC...?

200 ft of chain is my normal go to for cruising. I did use one boat with 150 ft of chain in the Caribbean and it was fine. I always have a bunch of rope rode behind the chain "just in case"
Here in the PNW it would be nice to have 300 ft of chain as it can be deep in spots.

Ease of handling with rope involved depends on the windlass setup in question. My windlass handles a mixed rode just fine. Feeds in and out of the locker with no manual fussing and the splice goes through the windlass just fine, just let off the button for a second right before it goes over the gypsy on retrieval (it sometimes slips if you try to pass the splice at full speed, but works just fine if you let it slow down a bit).

[JK SV Pretorien]

The longer chain lengths advised in the thread are sound insurance (where demanded).
However, under the scenario of:
1) a boat and bow that prevents carrying the weight of 100m/330' length of all chain; while
2) cruising destinations with unavoidable deep anchorages and coral.
leaves a skipper with the complex task of how to equip and manage all anchoring situations?

It would be interesting to know what others have done to deal with this not uncommon problem. Not limited to:
- How to prevent the deployed rope section of the chain/rope combo from being severed?
- Getting the splice and rope breaking loads matched to the chain BL, while balancing the needed stretch in the rope while snatching and yawing in a gale.
- How to manage the crush pressure on the rope and chain splice when retrieving the chain section and anchor from great depths.
- How to connect and manage an additional chain section when preparing for a known approaching large storm event?

[slug]

Decrease chain diameter and increase chain spec.. ....grade 70 ....is the typical solution when anchor locker space is restricted and a long chain is needed

A jumbo anchor on a short chain can work

A chain rope rode is a huge compromise ... the last resort

Avoid

[chrisr]

have only one word for rope in your anchor rode

coral


cheers,

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

400’ of chain?

Why?

I am figuring weight and balance, if it doesn’t pull its weight I don’t see a need, that’s a ton of ugg boots for my girl or lots of ammo for me

We have 300' of chain, 5/16ht. Normally we anchor in 30-40 ft of water 5:1, is 150 to 200 ft of chain. All but the last 40 ft is on the bottom, subject to rock and coral.

We have circumnavigated. Occasionally we have anchored in 65-90 ft of water. You use it all then.

And consider the catenary advantage of all chain when you are in a blow.

Leave the ammo (somebody is going to confiscate it anyway or shoot you for it) and take the chain.

[Westcliffe01]

Reading the Dashew "Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia" a free book that one can download from their website https://setsail.com/download/46296/


On chapter 4 Page 14, they review their ground tackle and specifically chain.


For Intermezzo 2 which was a 50' ketch, they decided on high strength chain 5/16" and 80 fathoms worth (480 ft) which was combined with a 110lb Bruce anchor.


The book starts off with a description of a situation they got themselves into in New Zealand anchored in coral with a light sand bottom where the prevailing wind direction switched at night and then started to blow and they had a reef to their lee 100 ft away, which prevented them from letting out any more scope. It could have been a disaster.


If you have not already, download their free books, most in PDF format, they are filled with practical examples of what goes wrong. In some cases a single storm system resulted in multiple deaths, through different failure modes. Definitely a worthy read.

[JK SV Pretorien]

Downsizing chain size would not be an option, as the boats facing this issue would already be carrying 5/16'/8mm. The difference of weight between G40 and G70 in 8mm is negligible (i.e. ~5kg per 100m length).
Going back to the lower size of the boat lengths given in the original post, and what is the crux of the chain length problem, it would be worthwhile to hear real world experience of others who have dealt with:
- How to prevent the deployed rope section of the chain/rope combo from being severed?
- Getting the splice and rope breaking loads matched to the chain BL, while balancing the needed stretch in the rope while snatching and yawing in a gale.
- How to manage the crush pressure on the rope and chain splice when retrieving the chain section and anchor from great depths.
- How to connect and manage an additional chain section when preparing for a known approaching large storm event?

[wingssail]

We've heard the endless assertions, (true, I will stipulate) that when bar tight catenary does not help. So for that rare circumstance, carry the biggest anchor you are comfortable with. However, we not only need to be prepared as best we can for the 100 year storm, but for the every day blow, when catenary definitely helps.

In the every day blow catenary does help, immensely. So the weight of chain is good. Very good.

Solution, big anchor but lots of chain. Heavy chain.

But then how do you keep the bow of your boat from being overly heavy? We all agree that weight in the ends is counterproductive to sailing in waves.

Our solution is not novel or new. We put a moderate anchor on the bow, (20kg) and have a heavier one at the ready (we've needed it once in 25 years).

Then, and this is important, bring the chain back. Don't carry it in the bow.

Our windlass is 10 feet back from the roller. And the chain, which drops 6 feet to the forepeak hull floor, is then dragged back another eight feet to the mast where the chain locker is. Yes, this is extra work, but it keeps most of the weight out of the bow and it allows us to carry 300ft of heavy of chain for when we need it.

We will sail with what we need and expect 365 days a year, year after year, and deal with the extreme when it happens, rather than carry excessive and unneeded weight in the bow 365 days a year, for year after year, just in case and be slow and suffer for all those days.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by JK SV Pretorien

2) cruising destinations with unavoidable deep anchorages and coral.


(...)


- How to prevent the deployed rope section of the chain/rope combo from being severed?


- How to connect and manage an additional chain section when preparing for a known approaching large storm event?

We have anchored quite a lot and not many anchorages are deep AND coral.


If it is too deep, simply do not anchor there.


The chain rope will not be severed if there is no rope in it.


You can extend chain or rope by adding more chain or rope as required. Skip the splice part, place 10 shackle on 8 chain (12 on 10) and you are set. This is best done when you first rope extension has a thimble. We used plain nylon thimble (closed) and it never got crunched, not even deformed. Tying rope on an oversize shackle is an option too.


b.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

You can extend chain or rope by adding more chain or rope as required. Skip the splice part, place 10 shackle on 8 chain (12 on 10) and you are set. This is best done when you first rope extension has a thimble. We used plain nylon thimble (closed) and it never got crunched, not even deformed. Tying rope on an oversize shackle is an option too.

That's a reasonable way to do it, but if you have a windlass that can feed rope spliced to chain, you might as well splice it on. Then when you need to use it, there's no manual handling or having to switch to a capstan to pull the line portion.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

That's a reasonable way to do it, but if you have a windlass that can feed rope spliced to chain, you might as well splice it on. Then when you need to use it, there's no manual handling or having to switch to a capstan to pull the line portion.

Smartass how do you extend the chain if the rope is spliced on?


barnakiel

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Smartass how do you extend the chain if the rope is spliced on?


barnakiel

If you needed to extend the chain portion, you could shackle the extra chain on at the anchor end before dropping. Adding it before the rope portion would be a challenge. Needing to add another section of rope would be fairly uncommon, I'd think. If occasional anchoring in very deep water is expected, I'd carry as much chain as I want / need / can handle the weight of on the primary, and then just add rope behind that up to the limit of what fits in the locker (assuming the locker won't hold 1000 feet or anything too crazy).

For a secondary rode, I'd definitely want things shackled rather than spliced for the sake of flexibility. In that situation there's a much larger chance you'd want to use one piece of the rode for something, or might need to stick a 2nd and 3rd rodes together for more length, etc.