How much anchor is too much anchor?

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

But I do have an anchor, a 176lb genuine Bruce that has held us during storms with 120kts wind sustained for many hours, gusting to much more than that.

Let's be honest now. That is at least as much luck and wave conditions. I doubt you were down below thinking during "It will be OK, our 176lb genuine Bruce will hold us"

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Panope

While the CQR does work well in my part of the world, there can be no doubt that the anchor has trouble setting in hard to penetrate substrates.

Noelex's "photos" thread proves the point well as he posted countless images of CQR's that failed to set.

I would recommend that folks study BOTH my and Noelex's work. The vastly different results that we documented is due entirely to the differing seabeds in which we operated.

Steve

Thanks Steve.

The thread featuring many photo of anchors (not just mine) performing in the real world can be seen in the link below. If you are interested in any particular model of anchor just hit the “search this thread” button (while viewing the thread) and type in the name this will initiate a search within this one thread. There are almost 3000 posts, many with multiple photographs:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post1954370

For most anchors the results from Steve’s excellent testing are reassuring, very much in agreement with my observations and the conclusions you are likely to draw after viewing the photographs of how the anchors work (or not) on the seabed. Different anchor tests often produce wildly different results so the close correlation is reassuring.

The CQR is one anchor where our results deviate. This is explained by the characteristics of the CQR. In medium soft substrates it works well, but it cannot handle hard or even medium hard substrates. The anchor just lays on side and slides along with minimal holding power. Test the CQR in a suitable substrate and the results are good. Its deficiencies only come to light in some bottom types and these bottom types are not present in some areas.

Most of my photographs were taken in the eastern Mediterranean. There are variable substrates, but a common bottom type is a fine layer of soft sand with hard sand underpinning this. The CQR often could not penetrate into the hard sand layer where other, modern anchors had no trouble. The other very common bottom type was weed, often thick weed. Here the results were very similar. It seems the anchor models that could penetrate the hard sand layer could also penetrate the weed layer and gain a grip on the more reliable substrate below the weed.

The photo below from post #2071 of the linked thread shows a CQR lying on its side having dragging a considerable distance (in this case 7-8 m) without really digging in. The heaped up sand offers some holding power, but this anchor will likely let go if the boat is exposed to stronger wind. The anchor was dropped in 5m of water at a scope of 5:1.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

And yet the Bruce doesn’t score high in the tests. The difference is that we are a 25 ton boat (well, 22 ton before we loaded it up) with a 176lb Bruce. Overkill which tipped the balance to our advantage during those storms.

Woof! 176-lb anchor and 25 ton boat! Don't think I'd turn that down!

Also, might not matter much what kind of anchor it is; maybe darn near anything that heavy could work reasonably well?

FWIW, that's twice the weight of our new Vulcan (recommended weight for our 26-ton boat, maybe 28-tons fully loaded), and I don't see how we could add anything larger/heavier given our existing davit/roller system. In fact, I've been having to leap through some hoops to make this one fit sorta-kinda...

Our 88-lb Vulcan 40 did pretty OK last week, for it's inaugural splash. Absolutely calm weather, what's not to like? Took me 45 minutes to hose mud off the chain and anchor...

-Chris

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by ranger58sb

Woof! 176-lb anchor and 25 ton boat! Don't think I'd turn that down!

Also, might not matter much what kind of anchor it is; maybe darn near anything that heavy could work reasonably well?

FWIW, that's twice the weight of our new Vulcan (recommended weight for our 26-ton boat, maybe 28-tons fully loaded), and I don't see how we could add anything larger/heavier given our existing davit/roller system. In fact, I've been having to leap through some hoops to make this one fit sorta-kinda...

Our 88-lb Vulcan 40 did pretty OK last week, for it's inaugural splash. Absolutely calm weather, what's not to like? Took me 45 minutes to hose mud off the chain and anchor...

-Chris

Here you see a sistership of us jumping over waves (planing on a beam reach) with the same 176lb Bruce on the roller. Looks small enough to me

[kmacdonald]

Follow the anchor manufacturers suggestion and for gods sake, don't oversize it. The manufacturer already did that.

[boatpoker]

Took this photo of the bulletin board at Sodus Bay Yacht Club a week ago.
Think about it ....

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Follow the anchor manufacturers suggestion and for gods sake, don't oversize it. The manufacturer already did that.

It does not seem that Peter Smith, the designer of Rocna anchors, followed his own anchor sizing tables when selecting the primary anchor for his own vessel.

He selected a Rocna 55 for a 15.5m 27t boat. This is oversized.

Even the Rocna tables only size an anchor assuming 50 knots and many companies are far worse. For example, the Fortress sizing table assumes a maximum of a very modest 30 knots of wind.

What makes you think manufacturers oversize their anchors when publishing the sizing tables? It is in their best interest to recommend an anchor as small as possible. Potential buyers assume the model with the smallest recommended size must be the superior design.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Here you see a sistership of us jumping over waves (planing on a beam reach) with the same 176lb Bruce on the roller. Looks small enough to me

Yep. Tiny!



-Chris

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Took this photo of the bulletin board at Sodus Bay Yacht Club a week ago.
Think about it ....

I would happily take both if I were there . both are way to big for my current boat but I know people here that could really use a good anchor like the car. The Bruce would likely become crucible fodder for my foundry / forge

[Jubilee39]

Y'all can denigrate the CQR all you want, however I have circumnavigated with a pair on the bow, they stow very easily. In the 30 years of passages and numerous hurricanes they have served me well. I am not saying that they would set first time every time by no means but when set I have gone through winds up to 170 kn (Louis in SXM) and in the difficult eastern Med anchorages. Facestious remarks from armchair sailors are unwelcome. I am not against modern anchors but would have to do extensive modifications on the bow pulpit to accomodate one. As the saying goes, if it ain't broke don't try to fix it. I can perssonnally attest to the superior holding power of a danforth and much frustration of ever getting a fortress to set.
Pontificate all you want, real world results count

[smj]

Originally Posted by Jubilee39

Y'all can denigrate the CQR all you want, however I have circumnavigated with a pair on the bow, they stow very easily. In the 30 years of passages and numerous hurricanes they have served me well. I am not saying that they would set first time every time by no means but when set I have gone through winds up to 170 kn (Louis in SXM) and in the difficult eastern Med anchorages. Facestious remarks from armchair sailors are unwelcome. I am not against modern anchors but would have to do extensive modifications on the bow pulpit to accomodate one. As the saying goes, if it ain't broke don't try to fix it. I can perssonnally attest to the superior holding power of a danforth and much frustration of ever getting a fortress to set.

Pontificate all you want, real world results count

Not all here are armchair sailors, and where did you get the 170kt winds for Luis?

Maarten/ St. Martin, during Hurricane Luis in 1995, the barometric pressure fell between 963 bar to 964 bar (28.4 inHg to 28.5 inHg) and the winds were about 87 mph (140 km/h). There were also winds with maximum gusts of 114 mph (183 km/h).
So the question remains, what is YOUR experience with the modern new gen anchor? Any? If not then I would suggest that you would be the armchair sailor in this discussion.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by smj

Not all here are armchair sailors, and where did you get the 170kt winds for Luis?

Maarten/ St. Martin, during Hurricane Luis in 1995, the barometric pressure fell between 963 bar to 964 bar (28.4 inHg to 28.5 inHg) and the winds were about 87 mph (140 km/h). There were also winds with maximum gusts of 114 mph (183 km/h).
So the question remains, what is YOUR experience with the modern new gen anchor? Any? If not then I would suggest that you would be the armchair sailor in this discussion.

Actually the bar was 935..
LUIS is the 13th cyclone of the 1995 season. It appeared in the Atlantic on 28/08/1995 and had a lifespan of 15 day (s) and 0 hour (s). It directly impacted the following territories: Anguilla, Barbuda, St. Barts, Saint-Martin. Its maximum intensity was 130kt or Hurricane Cat.4.
What I call a real birthday blowout.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by smj

Not all here are armchair sailors, and where did you get the 170kt winds for Luis?

Maarten/ St. Martin, during Hurricane Luis in 1995, the barometric pressure fell between 963 bar to 964 bar (28.4 inHg to 28.5 inHg) and the winds were about 87 mph (140 km/h). There were also winds with maximum gusts of 114 mph (183 km/h).
So the question remains, what is YOUR experience with the modern new gen anchor? Any? If not then I would suggest that you would be the armchair sailor in this discussion.

We all know he ment 170km/h and not knots .
I myself have experience with many different anchors and I still prefer the #25 CQR on the bow of my 29 ft defender along with a #27 Danforth. Different substrates use different anchors .

[Fore and Aft]

All this arguing about anchors reminds me of a 35-foot cat that was abandoned of the beach In Hervey Bay Queensland years ago. I did the survey when the boat was finally slipped and she had been anchored on the cheapest imitation CQR anchor you can buy with a length of chain. Both the chain and anchor were not overly large yet they survived a year of holding in a sandy bottom. The biggest damage was from the stains on the deck from the mounds of bird waste.
Cheers

[smj]

Originally Posted by newhaul

We all know he ment 170km/h and not knots .

I myself have experience with many different anchors and I still prefer the #25 CQR on the bow of my 29 ft defender along with a #27 Danforth. Different substrates use different anchors .

We all know? He said kts? So we go from 170kts to less than 92kts? Big difference.
On our first cruise over 30 years ago we went through a storm with 90+kts. The CQR did its usual and drug, but thank god the danforth held.